Linden Labs Second Life accounts terminated

Headline: Linden Labs Second Life accounts terminated

Dated: 6th December 2008

Source: River Ely

Rivers-Islands.com

I started in Second life in September 2006 by creating an account and downloading the viewer. A large software package that was frail, it easily crashed and caused my internet bandwidth to rise from kilobytes per month, through mega bytes and into the giga bytes. Addiction was quick.

Over the next few months we learned what could be done in Second Life, and we learned of the possibilities, they seemed endless, there was something un-limiting about the entire immersive experience. It may have been digital, but it seemed to be so real. It took moments to realise the onscreen characters were, like my own, manipulated by real people, real world views, concepts, choices, idioms, everything! All coming together in a common location in the ethereal three dimension electronic reality transmitted from unknown servers on another planet, or so it seemed.

Today I closed several accounts. I did not abandon them, I transferred the Linden Dollars to my sub account and then selected each in turn for closure. The inventory is mostly no transfer, so nothing gets to be kept these days, and without another ‘Second Life’ to use them in, they are so much wasted funds. I have closed just nine accounts, some seven hundred US Dollars and a total of six quarterly closed accounts saving me on renewal fees. The dollar value lost today to me is about a thousand dollars in inventory losses.

Each account had a character that was unique and had a life of their own. The names are:-
Adia Bury, portrayed in the end as a black skinned gay male, he was used to demonstrate to bigots that homophobia hurts everyone.
Lief Ella, A darling of a girl who loved to have fun.
Caela Shepherd, so close to my own natural identity and created to allow a close friend to explore her own needs in SL.
Arel Allen, I devised to fly around my sims and locate ban lines as an estate owner, I never saw the ban lines, and I did not want my residents to have their second life experience degraded so Arel Allen became the ‘crash dummy’.
Kaela Kingsford, she was my gift to my partner, she played the part of the submissive, and it did not last long.
Lucy Newall, created to explore the sex industry on SL.
River Riggles, A demonic girl and angry at the world and the idiots that run it. She showed them their weaknesses in spades, she made enemies where other people were willing to turn a blind eye and walk away.
Kizzy Kerr, created in the United States, my home and my part of Floridian America. And finally,
Susan Seaton, Author, Creator, Pain in the rear end.




One of the above is the real me. All of them have traits that combine to make me. Each account meant something, they were not bots, and they were active paid for accounts that allowed me to have several different but essential versions of my own real life in the virtual world of Second Life.

Transcript Ends: Accounts Closed Permanently.

Linden Labs, Second life loses another key investor by River Ely.

Linden Labs Second Life loses another key investor.

Today started with a thunderstruck announcement on the blogs, announcing Sarah Nerd is pulling out of her investment in Second Life by Linden Labs. I read her SNE Announcement in a flash. The words went into my head as concepts and came out as tears. If Sarah is going, then who...

I know Sarah, only casually, but as a role model and as a truly good person. I picked up my blogging tool...


Hi Sarah.

Congratulations for holding on so long, it has been a leap of faith trusting in Second Life, by Linden Labs to turn things around. You and I started about the same time in SL, though my partner and I are coming up to retirement and put a lot of our initial start up cost on credit card. Between us (Rivers Islands and NEF Holdings) we had a fair number of islands with over 600 residents, in seemingly no time at all. We saw you and others (Barts for example) doing well and that rallied us. Our business models may have been a little different, but in essence, we all invested in the expensive start up costs to recover that cost over time from the tiers the other players paid to us because they could not afford to buy a whole sim, or a whole void, or a whole parcel on the auctions.

I have already pulled out, my partner is all but pulled out and I doubt we will have an active presence in SL in the New Year. It is sad to see you go under, it re enforces our view that SL has been cheating on us, undercutting our ability to maintain our investments in them, destroying faith in a stable working platform, denying us the basic ability to forecast costs and gauge returns factors. If we cannot work out if we will lose money over time, we will not invest, that would be foolish; we do not give money away for the fun of it.

I fear the statistics for registrations, land use, dollar transactions et al, as exalted by Second Life ‘bean-counters’ like Zee Linden adhere too, are make believe. They are unreal in the extreme. The only person being fooled is the fool himself.

Sorry to see you go Sarah, you have been a formidable representation is Second Life, and your absence is a damning representation to all others confirming Linden Labs Second Life is no longer a place for those seriously interested in creating Virtual Worlds for Profit. The model, has been broken.
Condolences
River Ely


Other blogs by this author can be found at:- http://rivers-rock.blogspot.com/
Sarah Nerds Post, and reply:- http://your2ndplace.com/node/1380#comment-12859

Goodnight Linden Labs, Second Life has finished and we are leaving now.

Another open space has to be switched off. Truth is, I have no idea if mine is the 500th, 1000th, or 15,000th. The figures from Linden Labs are hopelessly inconsistent. Zee Linden, the Financial Officer suggested to me there were 15000 open spaces sold over the last 6 – 9 months.

If other land owners are facing the same loss of traffic and support, I imagine SL is pretty much coming up empty. Here is my ‘Ticket’ to Linden labs Concierge:-

Ticket Description

Summary: Close Region


Ticket Type: Land and Region Issues


Are there multiple monitors?: 1


Region Request: Region is down


Region Name: River Mouth


Preferred Language: English


Details: Please take down 'River Mouth' region as it is no longer needed. River Mouth is now an empty Region. Please switch it off.


Reference Ticket number: [Not Shown]


Attachment:


Solution Solved: (11/11/08 6:43 AM PDT) Hello River!


Thanks for letting us know. I have disabled the region, to prevent further cost. The final deletion will occur in 7 days from now.


Best regards, (An un-named) Linden, Concierge


Action: Close Ticket



Comment:


Sad huh

Linden Labs were quite happy to sell me all those islands, and charge me a set up fee disguised as if I was actually purchasing something. Now they are sold, or as in this case, switched off, nothing, no remorse, no care, and no emotion. (employee name), I don’t know you, but I tell you this, your employer, does not give a damn, and that’s why I am leaving SL after all this is over and done with. The spark of care and the concern is gone from Second Life.


------------------------ ticket closed ---------------------------

Its heartbreaking returning things to owners, you are returning just prims, three dimensional co-ordinates with texture images wrapped about them, but they were made by people, each has their own reason and method, each has their own unique fingerprint and reality, each prim is a reminder that some one loved what they were doing and the reason for doing it. Real people who trusted Linden Labs to look after their real dollar investment in real thoughts and real feelings. The players leave, move on, do other things, leaving you with not just an empty nest, but empty streets, places, communities, islands, hearts, dreams and missing rainbows.

Linden Labs so mismanaged Second Life, they undersold the open space sims, waited until they had sold tens of thousands, and then elected to create a price hike of 66%. Each sim they sold paid for the server they were on, the monthly tier was pure profit, a never ending income stream. Then to scare people silly, so much so, they run away abandoning their things is pure arcane stupidity. It is pure greed delivering financial Suicide. Congrats Linden Labs, you did what Reginald Perrin failed to do, you are destroying the company you have by chasing away customers who have happily invested in your product for years. Reggie admitted selling Grot, useless rubbish and the people flocked in. Yes that was a tv program, but funny as anything. You are doing it for real, it’s not funny, it is scary and sad.

You do not acknowledge your 15,000,000 residents for the most part do not log in. Of the 40 – 60 thousand log-ins per day, 50% are bots that are taking up space to ‘game’ the numbers to make some islands look busy. You don’t have land sales totalling thousands on the mainland, you have a bunch of wanna-be realtors, buying and selling to each other avatar inflating prices. The biggest number of your logins are people on a free ride, and they will not support you.

I, and my colleagues, as Island Owners, bought your product, paid your over priced tier for years on end, without complaining and now you have robbed us of our customers, increased our costs, devalued our investments and now, as we leave, we switch off empty Sims.

Linden Labs and Second Life has been fun, but it’s over and we are leaving.

Linden Labs use techo babble and spin to cheat second life users.

Second Life, Linden Labs, User Base Retention.

[QUOTE=Katt Linden]As we have mentioned previously, tailoring the Second Life platform to make it easier for new Residents to begin experiencing the virtual world is one of our primary objectives moving forward. With that in mind, we’re pleased to announce that Linden Lab has engaged award-winning interactive design agency Big Spaceship as a partner in transforming the Second Life experience.

....

[/QUOTE]


WOAH THERE.....

Yes, please, Katt, I have been, for my sins, one of those people, employed by larger companies and organisations, to teach their employees three simple things.

1) A retained customer is worth three new customers.
It is simple logic, the existing customer already knows the system, the costs, the benefits, the methods, the people, the product. They have a good experience working with you and will prefer that, to having to gain all that experience again with another company. Further, the existing customer spends little time balancing your company against the opposition, its often ‘easier’ to stick with what you have, the customer normally does not court imbalance, frustration or the need to see great change. In your jargon, it is a win-win situation.


2) Existing customers will generate new customers.
Call it buzz, hype, anything, but the existing customer base, and the easy way you work with them, is seen right away by new customers trying to find a better customer experience. In other words, they will see how much your existing customers are happy with their relationship with you; they will want to be a part of it. You cannot lose. Treat your customers fairly, happily, promptly and courteously, and the new customers will do all they can to be a part of that experience. Keep your product priced at a level that keeps existing customers, and new customers will want to fall into step very quickly to take advantage of what they perceive the existing customer are enjoying.


3) Simpler and easier communications, wins customers.
It is easy, like you were taught in University, or by the boss of your early Company where you shined, or when you told your own employees, Keep It Simple! When communication is hard, multi faceted, meaningful jargon and complicated ways of saying things, you’re telling people you do not value them. Yes. By being complicated clever, you are setting yourself up to be apart from the people you need most, the customers. If they, for example, want a red doo-hicky, or a green one, let them have one, please, if you try to tell the customer he actually wants a blue thingy-ma-bob, you lose them. Simple. Keep it Simple.

The news media, refer to the over complicated language below, as spin... Its actually quite meaningless and does nothing for you when you apply it to a customer. It means, You have little to say, but like to use clever words. In the old days, it was called smoke and mirrors...


[Quote]... Big Spaceship will be working with internal teams at Linden Lab to research, design, prototype and test web sites and user interfaces that dramatically lower the learning curve for experiencing Second Life.
Big Spaceship will employ a user-centered design methodology to develop innovative solutions for streamlining the complexity of Second Life without limiting the freedom and expressiveness that makes Second Life so powerful for so many people... [/Quote]

Lets re-write that horrible paragraph.. Together...

A company called ‘Big Spaceship’ will be working with us to improve things for new players.

The second sentence above doesn’t actually say anything of value.

It does show one thing that all your customers will see and recognise instantly Katt, you have no idea what to do or say so you fill the space with techno babble. You could have said the entire post in three sentances.

Example,” We feel if we make the start-up time for new players better, we can retain more customers.” We have employed a company called ‘Big Spaceship’ to work for us to help us get it better for new players. We think it will improve things for Second Life, part of Linden Labs.
That’s all you needed to say, dressing it up in spin shows you have lost the ability to keep it simple.


http://rivers-rock.blogspot.com responding to http://forums.secondlife.com

Mismanaged to destruction by Linden Labs, Second life dies.

Blog by: River Ely
Date: Nov 24th, 2008.

River Rock was sold tonight for the cost of transfer, VAT and a couple beers. Two years ago we started Rivers Rock as a we had moderately good land sales on the mainland and my partner had about six sims of her own. In those days, as we bought a sim, we would divide it into lots, sell them in a couple days or so and from the proceeds, fund the next sim. We literally had people falling out of the sky snapping up the lots as quickly as we could mark them out and price them.

Some days we would all join forces just to deal with the influx of visitors all hungry to buy the land at whatever price we set it for. At about this time, the Lindens broke the land search gizmo and we noticed other sellers dropping out of the sky onto our property too, staying for a few moments, and then leaving. They wanted to know our secret. We found that customers were drying up, so we set up arrival mats that greeted the customer in their own language and underneath the mats; we set the land for sale for a dollar a plot to raise it up the land listings on the land search.

The mats worked. It found us customers and ensured that we had our islands filled as quickly as we could without needing four of five of us babysitting the land for sale. In those days we snatched it back right away, else some of the people that bought out land set out for sale again so that they would get the profit without owning it. Heady days!

Towards the end of last summer, we found that selling land as a ¼ sim bought our land higher up the search ladder and that many Second Life users were keen to own safe land with a high prim count. The margins were ok as well. Life for a while was good. Even with the onset of last winter, sales were slow, but were working if you babysat the land for long enough. Then the Lindens changed the rules on the voids. Voids were low prim islands, and you needed to buy them in fours, and at least one, had to abut your main sim. The change was to enable the sims to be sold individually and without the need to butt up to a primary sim. They upped the prim count to 3750 and dropped the tier to 75USD month.

We watched helplessly and inexorably as tenants that had been with us for so long slowly migrated to the new open sims. The fact they were laggy, and sharing servers seemed to be offset by the ability to have loads of space, a good prim count and a very low tier.

Our sims began to show more and more open places, with sales not being taken up by customers. The land sales gizmo was page after page of open space sims, as fifteen thousand open space sims flooded into the market like some kind of candy confectionary currency. The lindens must have made a fortune selling them.

Finally, the Lindens, realised they had missed a massive market potential and giving away open sims was brought to a halt. Additionally they hiked the tier by 66% causing an instant massive swing away from open sims. Sadly, this was one more failure on the part of Linden Labs and instead of users returning to the normal sims, they elected to leave SL. The economy is ripe for giving up luxuries and as the USD, EURO and GBP fall in free fall on the worlds markets, food and light is more important. We paid the tiers on the islands, and the lack of income from missing tenants came from our surplus in the hopes of hanging onto the islands until the residents realised they needed real land again. The erosive nature of paying for others to play has now eroded my bank account surplus to zero and there is no more honey in the pot to sweeten the experience for those few who stayed loyal.

So tonight, I approached a lovely lady and close friend and invited her to buy the sim from me for the cost of transfer, VAT and a couple beers, she accepted. I enterd the word 'SOLD' into the status box on my spreadsheet, and logged out, for the last time, as a sim owner in Second Life, a company mismanged to destruction by Linden Labs.

Green Dot Terracotta Armies

Written by River Ely: Nov 23rd, 2008-11-23

(Written in response to http://foo.secondlifeherald.com/slh/2008/11/how-many-bots-i.html )
(based upon a posting on Second Life Forums at http://forums.secondlife.com/showpost.php?p=2230625&postcount=374

I pointed out in February the financial stability of owning small islands in Second Life with the intention of renting out space was declining. I was poo-poo'd It is madness in anyone’s eyes, to continually generate more and more land while the user base has been visibly shrinking, its as though they are printing money to satisfy the cost of hiring employees.

They (Linden Labs) are aware of the issues, but have (in my opinion) no way of altering the decline as the original motivators have either left the company, retired with fat cat pensions or have been fired. The bot population was evident at the beginning of the year and I found an island near one of my own, with a platform at 700 meters, crammed with 40 avatars, all in neat lines, all facing the same way and all in newbie player clothing and dress style. We called them 'Ruths', and could not understand at the time, the logic of so many people standing still for no reason. had they been dancing it might have been a party, but like Chinese terracotta armies, they stood in silent rows facing a nonexistent orator.

With the introduction of a relaxed rule set governing Voids or Open Space Sims, the final decline was initiated. A greedy move to generate more income was exploited and made available open space sims to about anyone at low cost. We had regular renters abandoning sound high prim low cost lots on conventional sims, in favour of the open spaces Sims that were starting to flood the market. For a while, it seemed the only way to retain these customers, was to convert main sims to open spaces and to buy in more and more open spaces. Still, the Europeans like myself, were fighting a losing battle in the early summer, as profit margins dropped, USA players could settle on a ten percent profit line. Sadly, with a European Player being hit with an additional VAT cost, 17.5% to 25%, we become early victims in the price cut wars. We watched our islands empty as the users followed the trail of cheap rentals and lots of space.

The Linden Income Generation factory has now changed the rules with a huge price hike on the cheap plentiful oversold Open Space population. The global economic downturn is not evident it seems in Linden Labs as they raised the cost of an Open Space sim by 66%. With some 15,000 open space sims to be affected, the price hike, if accepted by the users, would generate a massive income boost for the company.

The shifting USD-GBP ratio means that now I pay considerably more for my open Sim than I did in February, so my margins compared with the USD holder are more than depleted, they are trashed. If you are not a United States Player, I feel it is no longer an option to own islands in Second Life, that is if your aim is to generate income to cover your own player costs, plus a small profit. The frequency with which I have been giving islands away, asking Linden Labs Concierge Service to switch off open space sims and letting them expire in order to stem the flow of Money Out compared to Money In is alarming. I am but one player in SL, I had 12 Full Islands and number of open space sims, I am down to one island, with a single open space due to close in a few days time as tier rolls around again.

The summer surplus that has in the past kept me afloat until the autumnal players return like snowbirds flocking in for the perceived winter sunshine has been eroded over the last winter, hammered in the summer and is now all but dried up completely and I can no longer afford to sit on empty sims in the hopes that renters will any moment, flood in and restart the income generation.

The business model I had was sound, as was that of countless hundreds of other sim owners. The failing was the assumption by Linden Labs that everything in the garden was rosy and they failed on three counts.

One, they skewed the traffic stats and believed their results were the truth, regardless of the shouts from people like ourselves, Island owners with more empty sand than was comfortable

Two, generated more and more land for the nonexistent players thus deforming land prices beyond the point of stability.

And three, rather than introducing a package that encouraged land owners to retain and promote their land, they increased the cost of ownership to a point the market no longer would bear. They seem to have been blind to the loss of money spending account holders, and seem to have been treating bots, campers and alts as if they are real players all needing to own their ‘space’, a ludicrous and unsustainable situation to find themselves in. I bet the original creators, having sold second life to the current board, are laughing all the way to the bank.

We have been predicting the failure of Second Life for some time, it is a shame the Linden Labs Board Members could not have done the same.

JAGI, call it what it is...

May I add to...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bumble Parx First, please refer to us as customers, not residents, when discussing the parts of SL that we pay for. Maybe it's just me, but I find the tone of the announcements directed at 'residents' as quite patronising. ...

Another JAGI from River Ely:

This might sound odd, but please change the wording of "Selling Land". You do NOT sell land, selling implies the buyer has something they can take away and or something they own, We don’t 'own' anything in second life, things don't actually exist. Refer to a new island cost as a "Set up fee" for that is what it is. When a land owner sells land onto the next owner (or more often on mainland, speculator), they are transferring the 'setup cost' plus a profit margin of their own.

When an island owner rents space to a user and charges them a tier, they are actually sharing a proportion of the expected tier, to Linden Labs, plus a profit margin. But they don’t actually sell land, they share the cost of server time rental, nothing more, nothing less. How about Linden Labs calling it what it is, instead of fancy real world names that imply something that doesn’t actually happen.

Example

Say I 'buy' a region of mainland, then I should have the option of having that region lodged on my home computer system or another place I choose.

Say I buy a collection of primitives, (math coordinates with image textures stretched between nurbs), and I should be able to store that collection of information on my own system, so that I become responsible for its retention and or subsequent loss.

If I am not buying, as you suggest, but renting or gaining the freedom to use, then state that.

The concept of buying things is well understood in society, so is double talk, smoke and mirrors and clever people cheating less clever people to make a profit is something most of us do not like.
Change the wording Linden Labs, You don’t sell land, or islands, you charge a set up fee and you charge an ongoing maintenance fee (tier), My JAGI, call things what they are, not a fancy name that alludes to something completely different.

[url]http://rivers-rock.blogspot.com/2008/11/just-another-good-idea-jagi.html[/url]

Just Another Good Idea (JAGI)

Hi [Enter name of new hire], Welcome to Linden Labs.

I recycled the above, I used it for a whole bunch of other people who have come to the forum and said “I am new but we are going to change things for the better, we need to listen to you, give us your ideas”. And we do, we give you all ideas, concepts, suggestions. Some good, some awful and some not worth printing, and every now and them, we come up with a terrific idea and somehow, after all is said and done, it turns into just that, “Just Another Good Idea” (JAGI).

Your product has a lot of rough edges, is sloppy in some parts and is broken in others, the JIRA tells you that but I understand it will cost money and brains to fix a lot of the issues and that could detract from immediate income generation.

So a new JAGI needs to not detract from Income Generation while at the same time, fixing something that is broken.

Your ideas over the past two years have been perplexing, Windlight, Voice, Banning Gambling rather that create local servers, updates needing a whole package to be re-downloaded instead of a module for that package (huh!) so a new JAGI would have to have a value and a point and that could be implemented with minimum disruption.

You product has a huge addicted user base. No matter how much you mess up (and admit for once that mistakes in judgement are too frequent), we are still here. If you ever had a company that needed customer generated feedback, it is this one, but it seems no one at Linden Labs listens to their customers here. So a new JAGI needs to come from listening to us, your user base. (We are for the most part friendly, but remember, we outnumber you a million to one).


To round up, a JAGI needs to continue to generate income and hopefully improve it.

A JAGI needs have value that does not require disruption or a change in infrastructure.

A JAGI needs to be easy to implement, (Those are the best kind, low outlay, huge return)

And a JAGI has to be borne from your customers.


Here is my JAGI

Premium Accounts

The value of the premium account is miss understood when compared with Non Premium account holders. I would change little for the premium account holders. I would make a change to non premium account holders to widen the gap between account holders and non account holders.

1) I suggest that non premium account holders, Alts, Bots, Campers, Greifers etcetera are rewarded with in inventory scrub every 24 hours. ( yes, remove all created and or purchased content). Reason: if the account is to be used to sample SL then it is no loss, allow the character to be persistent but with an inventory cleaned out after 24 hours.

2) Allow non premium account holders to forcibly expire after thirty days. With the name being locked for 30 days more against re-use. How many times do you need to log in and explore before deciding you want to retain inventory and a name?

3) Remove the option to hold funds from non account holders. That way they can’t be ‘gifted’ funds from other avatar accounts and buy weapons or other things that can be used to reduce the quality of game play for those of us who invest into Second Life.

4) If the account is an ALT account, and the account is riding on the strength of a premium account, then for account purposes, it should be part of that account and counted as the main avatar. So if there are 40,000 logged in and 10,000 are ALTS camping or taking up numbers, the true account of logged in accounts should be 30,000.

Or

4a) If an premium account is logged in, and an alternative account for that holder tries to log in, the premium account avi should be bumped off. Restricting one avi to one user. If the second account is a premium account, then allow the second avatar to add to the total number of avatars on line without bumping off the first or primary avatar.


Remove negativity

I am not suggesting Camping Avi’s should be banned, but if you want to set a dozen or forty avatars to camp to swell the numbers for your sim, then pay premium for each one, then we will see how ineffective campers are and Linden Labs will make a tidy sum in the process.

I am not suggesting that people create alts for negative reasons, or for attacking those who have displeased their owners, but if you had to pay premium for your avi in order to attack the other player, then losing your accounts upon detection would be a far more costly process.


Resolve

Simple changes, they have defined values, they increase the revenue for Linden Labs and go some way to creating more visible numbers with more accuracy. It means little or no change for the vast majority of users who already contribute heavily to the success of Linden labs, and the removal of some free accounts ability to grief, camp or clutter, would be an impact appreciated by every premium member that ever existed.

Please vote for my JAGI.

http://forums.secondlife.com reply# 374

Message to Second Life Users: Zee Linden was there and listening.

After so many heated words from so many perspectives, Zee Linden invited anyone who cared to, to join him in Second Life for one on one conversation. We were given a chance for us all to talk to the CFO in world and place our questions openly and in context. Sadly no one turned up.

We get so drawn into the forums when a Linden is present.

I was unable to attend the in-world meeting as I have to be at work tomorrow and its gone midnight here in the UK already. However, Zee contacted me in Immediate Message Mode as I had written my questions out on a note card and allowed Zee to respond. I never thought for one moment that Zee would respond as I held the view that the CFO would either give me answers he thinks I want to hear, or he would give me answers he believes are correct, even though we have reason to doubt the legitimacy of his replies.

I have promised Zee that I will create a fair and balanced reply to the article in my blog, complaining about skewed metric, complaining about Bots camping and inflating the figure, about land dumping and churning. I am not perfect and never find the time to comb the myriads of stats released by SL, I, like many, become confident in the knowledge I have and hold onto that, and when it is not in a good light, I too can become tightly focused. Another reason not to expect Zee linden to reply, after all, he is on a losing streak as far as the facts I hold are concerned.

This of course is unfair.

I have had a good dialogue with Zee tonight, simple straightforward honest facts have been shared, not all glowing and rosy as earlier suggested by the tide of the news feed, but some facts have been presented in a more meaningful presentation to me, enough to get me thinking and enough for me to do three things.

1) I am withdrawing the barb from my tone, Zee has shown he is not only willing to communicate effectively but is also willing to share exacting and precise information. Though we may have to learn the best way of asking those questions as the dialogue and circumstance of Zee’s financial world is critically different in so many ways to our day to day work in Second Life.

2) I am acknowledging Zee has made every effort to reach out and discuss the trends and the events that are affecting residents. He has been attracting comment on the Forum here for the best part of three or four hours, and for a CFO that is indeed valuable time. Further, Zee has been in-world publically available to listen to our concerns in order to gain insight from our experiences. Again, consider the absence of other senior staff and then admit for Zee to spend valuable time face to face with us is a welcome change. None of us are happy at the seemingly madcap way the Linden managers are translating solutions currently, so Zee’s appearance on the forum and in world is got to be seen as a welcome opportunity.

3) I will publish a balanced article on my blog to follow up and counter balance the existing negative publications. I will review what I have learned from Zee tonight and will make that result available in RL along-side and balancing my other comments. I am going to be away for a few days and will not catch up until Monday, but catch up I will.

I have to ask a couple more questions of Zee before I can ( looking at my notes) fully respond, but I am confident that even though Linden Labs have cocked things up a bit, there is opportunity for some of surviving this and hopefully , going forward with realistic expectations and exploring real opportunities in the coming months.

Sadly, the world is suffering a slowdown in growth and this may exacerbate the decline in the short term for many companies, not just Linden Labs, but I feel a lot more confident now knowing Zee is reachable and is willing to listen to constructive argument. Hopefully we can work together if we can all agree to talk the same language, listen to each other, and pose sensible and correct solution opportunities.

Another island gets switched off. Thanks Linden Labs for trashing dreams and stealing rainbows.

Tonight , the renter on River Mouth 4 vacated the property. I raised another ticket to have it switched off and in the nick of time, a buyer surfaced and is willing to take the island. After the deduction of 100 USD and the tier, I make, 25 usd, thats 12 GBP or after tax about 7GBP, enough for two pints of cheap beer. What a crying shame.

The island was a home for some, it was a playground for others, and it has been a thriving and affordable business for a lady driven to do charitable things.

The island is going to become part of a full sim again and hopefully carry on delivering hundreds of sim time hours for residents to shape, use and enjoy into the future.

Letter to Zee Linden.CFO Linden Labs (Secondlife.com)

I had a reply from Zee, it was evasive but seemed to honestly court interest> Sadly it was to join him in world to ask those questions, and i know form bitter experiance, such question and answer sessions degrade into meaning cross conversations with tens of avatars asking different questions at the same time. Typing seems so slow whern you need to fire off a quick question and a small typo can change the question to become meaningless. I knew I had no chance of asking real questions, so I created a note and dropped it onto Zee's Profile...


It reads...



Hi Zee. I know if you are in world the chances of having a realistic conversation with you is about as realistic as hoping a chocolate fireguard will survive the winter. In world too many people talking at the same time, conversations become incredibly disjointed and only fail spectacularly to create meaningful results for the many, unless you are seeking nodding approval from those that have no real concerns and fail to grasp the basic importance of having a CFO actually meet customers.


My concerns are many fold, and though it may seem like I am asking silly questions, its because a year ago I had 12 sims, two of which were open spaces. Over the following months, more and more open spaces came on stream until I started, like many others, to lose residents to cheap and freely available open space sims, and seemingly supported by the Linden Fabric that coalesces to create what we see as second life.



I sold some, had some switched off, nearly lost a seven sims to a thief (Atown Fall) and had it not been for Ethan and Spike Linden intervening to get my sims back to me, I would have lost them. Sadly, the residents had been scattered so I got seven sims back, and no residents to help me create tier. I don’t know if you can imagine what it feels like to go from 12 full thriving sims, to one sim and three open spaces, in less than a year? Through sheer bloody incompetence on behalf of Second Life trend management teams, a catastrophic migration of customers seemed to go un-noticed, yet, I and friends and colleagues were screaming out daily to you asking for help , support, information and most of all, the bloody nosed truth.


I feel if you had been due diligent, you would have compared two important numbers together, the same numbers every sim business owner ran every day, "How many residents do I have, and how much land do I have?"


For me, I had the alarming trend of fewer and fewer residents while my land holding stayed static until I realised my surplus was being eroded paying tier on empty regions. I reduced my holding again and again until I am where I am now, scared stiff I might not make tier next month unless something changes soon. For you and your colleagues, you should have seen a huge growth in land sales, yet not the same proportion of population growth. Had you, like many of us, looked at the map, you would have seen that about 1 user per sim on line at peak logins. That should have rung alarm bells while at the same time swelling your income with the “kerching” of land being created and sold. The numbers must have been there for you. I have gone, in less than a year, from giving you happily tier of $3,500 USD to a very desultory $300 USD.


I am a little angry and a lot sad, for we had settled on a stable and simple business model, and through no fault of our own, it was eroded and taken away from us, I am scared to think of how the big guys were affected, as we are small fry compared. Oh I am happy to deal with market forces and changing trends, happy to play with predictive spikes in sales, pre ordering, buying just in time, manipulating tiers to establish sound customer residences, adjusting covenants until we strike a balance that works, even having to deal with an unfairly allocated VAT. Instead of normally being inclusive, you for some reason that has never been explained, elected to add it to the sale price, thus out pricing Europeans from our American cousins by some 17.5%. When we are talking profit margins of 4, 5, and 9 percent, a 17.5% tax is enough to wipe out any hard earned income completely. That Zee, was squarely your doing as the CFO you cannot elude that responsibility.

So I am not happy, and when I ask to see figures that will confirm my collapsing business is not my fault, i earned a flippant remark from you, that Zee, annoyed me. I wish some days I had time to nip out at lunch and be with the kids. damn, you can switch off for an hour and chill while we are all bashing away on the boards because you forgot to say, 'be back in an hour'. I guess that is some measure of how much you respect some of us.

I want to see the truth, I do know that many of your daily logins are bots, many are alts, but Zee, how many are active customers, and how many of those are capable of buying land. Simple questions I feel. Unless we know how many real land buying residents are in game the rest of the numbers don’t add up. You can visit countless sims that are full of people and they are bots, camping, placed there to swell the numbers, to make those sims look busy, Its cheating and you know it is, yet you simply seem to add them to the figures and happily state that a million people logged in last month. A question I asked was how many of those million were actual accounts? You never say...


My questions you recall were:-

3) What are the current figures for:-

a) Number of avatars per region as I regularly see clutches of sims with not more than one or two avatars on?

b) Percentage of avatars who pay Tier to other players or Linden labs?

c) Number of daily logins divided between Premium members (able to hold land) and non premium members (capable of being a bot)


Another quick point, if you are still reading Zee. I see plots on the mainland where speculators are asking large sums of lindens for, hoping to make a good income no doubt. My question revolved around this. How much land was sold: how much land was reclaimed: how much land was up for sale


Yes I used those colons again as I know what a ratio is and I know too that the figures are not that simple to answer, but the proportional relationships should be leaping off the page at you in all honesty. They will support the fact that you have been creating land at an alarming rate, recovering land at an alarming rate and seeing land churned without being settled upon as the numbers of paying residents does not spread out over the amount of land you have made available.


Am I wrong? Show me I am wrong and I will write an article supporting you to offset the last couple articles I wrote sending messages of gloom and despondency. I would like to do that.

Rivers Rock: Alarm bells at Linden Labs could they Herald the death of Second Life?

Rivers Rock: Alarm bells at Linden Labs could they Herald the death of Second Life?

Alarm bells at Linden Labs could they Herald the death of Second Life?

I am for some reason alarmed by the latest entry here, in particular one element that alarms me is the following excerpt.

Originally Posted by Katt Linden
Linden Lab is pleased to announce results for the 3rd quarter of 2008.
Over 357 auctions have closed in the new Nautilus region where property is selling at L$60 per meter or 12x the average cost of mainland property, indicating that some users have a high demand for a more structured experience.
-- Zee Linden

The reason I am alarmed is that it tells me that whom ever produced this report is not in touch with the reality of the way Second Life is running. I get the feeling it has been written by some one who has no active working interest in Second Life and from some one who rarely gets to interact with real people on the grid. Zee may have posted the report and I know that Zee has a reasonable working knowledge of second life.

The sales above, we are told is where land in Nautilus Region is changing hands at a whopping 60L$ per square meter, and the inference is that tenants really want to live there so they are snapping the land up at really high prices. That from what I have seen is wrong. I have seen land barons buying the land at auction and then selling the plots with crazy prices of upto 120,000 L$ per plot. These are not residents moving in, but players trying to sell land at grossly inflated prices. (I am not calling them realtors as realtors that I have met are not as misguided).

These figures we are led to beleive are from a quarter when the Lindens announced a hold on new sims as there was a decrease in the demand for sims. So what is happening? I do not want to write something negative here as I know posts get pulled pretty quick these days if the Lindens disagree with the content. (Thus skewing opinion and creating an untrue bias in perception)

My questions are:
1) What percentage of land sold on Nautilus, has been resold or is up for sale? If residents were buying it to move in and stay, I would expect a low figure. If it being bought and sold, churned, I would expect a high figure.

2) What percentage of land has been reclaimed by Gov Linden in the same 1/4? How are land returns matching up to the new land being introduced, In other words, how much land made available is new, and how much has been owned before.

3) What are the current figures for:-

a) Number of avatars per region as I regularly see clutches of sims with not more than one or two avatars on?

b) Percentage of avatars who pay Tier to other players or Linden labs?

c) Number of daily logins divided between Premium members ( able to hold land) and non premium members (capable of being a bot)

The reason I ask these figures is that I get the distinct impression from your figures that the hundreds of bots we see are actually contributing to the land purchasing, user to user transactions and active daily registrations. Nothing could be further from the truth as at least one sim near my own has upwards of 40 users at a atime on it and they are all camping, many are still ruths. They are bots, not active players, and your figures dont seem to differentiate between them and regular users. That means your figures are being presented wrong, and that Zee, to be perfectly honest worried the heck out of me. If you are prepared as a Company to present figures that are not being shown correctly, what else is being hidden?

warmest but worried regards:

River Ely



I then made a second post to Zee Linden of Linden Labs:


quote

Originally Posted by Zee Linden
I'm not sure if I completely understand your question - but we were selling about 20 to 30 open spaces per day before that time. Is that your question?

I think the user was asking for a graph showing Openspaces sales over a daily basis. The graph would show an incremental increase culminating in thousands of Openspaces.


This would no doubt be an embarresment to you as it would clearly demionstrate that something was wrong way before you as a Company elected to suddenly change the prices by 66%. Zee, can we have that graph the user asked for so that we can see the numbers of sims being sold over the 1/4 concerned. I appreatiate your candour but 20 - 30 per day doesnt stack up...


See if you sold 20 a day over 90 days you would have 2240 openspace sims, if you sold 30 a day over 90 days, you would have 2700 open space sims, I got the impression from Mark Lindens figures that we were talking 5 thousand openspace sims, thats more like 60 - 65 sims per day for 90 days.
best idea is to just show the information Zee then we can see for ourselves that Linden Labs are not adjusting the figures to make best sense.

I feel confident you will agree with me Zee

-.~.- -.~.- -.~.- -.~.- -.~.- -.~.- -.~.- -.~.- -.~.- -.~.- -.~.- -.~.-


Zee responded with a throw away line, not what I expect from a CEO:
he said... Yes, we sold many many more than 20 to 30 per day when they were first introduced.

Thats it, in response to my simple questions above?

it prompted me to chance my arm and make a statement.
Zee, you dissapoint me, I asked, over two posts, some very simple, adroit, honest questions. I invited you to not give a throw-away comment about the open space sales, but to deliver real figures.

I tried to do it in a way that could be understood by all players with an interest, as well as some one with ten years internet experiance and a CFO to boot. If you do not have those figures, then admit it.

If you do have them ( and I hope to heck that if you are a professional CFO that you would have them plus a raft of other figures) then show them.

The questions are realy quite simple.

Treating us as idiots with yet another throw away line (above) really does not do any favours for you, it demonstrates that you really might not care as much as you want us to beleive.

Zee, please stop hiding behind quips, and deliver the numbers and the stats we asked for.

Put up, or, admit you cannot.

-------------------------

comment

It seems to me that Zee Linden, CFO of Linden Labs, may not have the business acumen he claims to have, or is dancing around the points of concern in the hopes that no one actually works out that Linden Labs is in deep water and starting to flounder. I for one am extremely cautious of investing in Linden Labs if the CFO cannot tell the simple truth when so asked by one of their investors.

Linden Labs Loses Direction

Heading: Announcing the $10,000 Linden Prize
Monday, November 10th, 2008 at 10:55 AM by: Robin Linden
I am very excited to announce the inaugural Linden Prize.
The Linden Prize will award one Second Life Resident or team with $10,000 USD, paid in Linden dollars, for an innovative inworld project that improves the way people work, learn and communicate in their daily lives outside of the virtual world. The award is intended to align with Linden Lab’s company mission–to connect all people to an online world that advances the human condition.


It strikes me that Lindens labs, having failed by botching up several measures intended to grow the lindens lab purse content while at the same time eroding the benefits and effective game play for those who not only supported Linden Labs, but contributed to their income and once again being shafted, although this time, is the guise of 'winning a prize'. A prize and I doubt the use of that word explicitly denotes something of sparkling gain, it should mean something of great value, something maybe unique or even outstanding, but in this case refers to the monopoly money or linden dollars, of which there are about 250 to a USD.

So the ‘winner’ of this purse is going to have to convert a load of loose linden bucks back into USD as we cannot spend Lindens lottery leaflets in the shops to the best of my knowledge. Why not pay the money outright to the winner in USD? Why not lodge it now with a third party?

Oh wait, the winner, in converting it will pay you a fee, OH YES!! Of course... You profit yet again!

Ok, so you don’t actually have the prize money, the real incentive, you have funny money worth only a 250th of the real deal. The fact this was earned on the backs of the business and entrepreneurs that have filled Second Life for the last two years may have little to do with it. Point is, you have lost direction, have no sound ideas for the future and everything you try backfires on you.

Let’s look at your objectives for the winner to satisfy to gain this effervescent multitudinous income. (Incalculable riches),

1) Work in Second Life that also achieves tangible, compelling results outside of Second Life.

Ok so we have to create a solution or propose a solution or dream up an idea, or suggest something that might work if.... er, and has to have tangible results, so you mean we have to design or create a solution and implement it, ( how do you measure an abstract like ‘compelling’, maybe you mean addictive, results outside second life. Outside second life? Wait

Create a second life solution inside second life that has compelling and real results in real life that has tangibility? I think this could be like using second life to teach people in the back waters of some dry forgotten country how to use Vaseline to save their children’s lives. But we can do that without lugging around computers and satellite systems to show people cartoon like figures speaking in a foreign language. Maybe that is not what you mean. Hmm then I am not sure what you mean at all here. Maybe the second definition will help me understand better.

2) Distinctive, original work using Second Life that clearly demonstrates high quality, execution, function, aesthetics and technical sophistication.

Distinctive original work, (ok with you so far) using Second Life, that clearly demonstrates (execution, function, aesthetics and tech sophistication) something happening that looks good and is technically clever! So putting 1 and 2 (above together, we get make something, a solution, that employs second life to solve a real world problem or dilemma in a way that is original, clever and looks pretty).

Now forgive me for being Naive, but any business man worth his salt does exactly that to survive in their chosen line of business, and 99.999 percent of them don’t use second life to do that. It’s called finding a niche and exploiting it. Here you want us to do that so that you can show how good second life is, and if we succeed, you pay us in funny money that will cost us a fee to turn it into real money! Am I on track so far?

Please look at your members and people who have been doing exactly that for the last two years that I have been here. We have been creating clever articulate solutions, that people have found sufficiently rewarding they paid real money to be here and join in. We sold land, clothes, gadgets, we sold the sky and smoke and mirrors, we made libraries, we made business, from newspapers to photographic studios, we created so many diverse businesses, you had to invent restrictions as we were getting too good and they included you less and less.

Mr Linden, that prize money should be paid to all the content creators and land estate agents that have spent the last year growing your business for you, they have been the real winners. You know the folks I mean, the ones you raised vat on and then cut their investment by 40%, those guys, the ones that supported you nonstop.

Ok let’s look at the third definition as so far all you have asked for is that which you should be doing, so maybe I am reading this all wrong.

3) Work that has the capacity for inspiring and influencing future development, knowledge, creativity, and collaboration both inside and outside of Second Life.

Wow! You mean you want us to create the tool or vehicle that will construct an ongoing business flow for you to enable you to gain a perpetual income flow based upon the work of another person or group, and for this, you pay what, a one of f, ten thousand USD dollar equivalents in Fuzzy Money.

You have got to be kidding Mr Linden.

Second Life and their constantly changing politics.

I was building something in Second Life when the Concierge common chat group chimed with a new message”. Torrid offered a Full region (or Sim) for sale, Tier date 13th, unique swamp woodsy build that can stay. Please IM me
We asked for the price and he gave us the asking price.

I said “I realised something last night, we have all been hoodwinked by Linden labs into believing that we are buying islands, islands that don’t exist, other grids charge a 'set up' fee, and that makes sense, so an island that has been set up once, would only need transferring, so it should be pointless selling an island, because in reality, your only asking for the reimbursement of your set up fee, whole different ball game”

Chade agreed with “You are right River...though I was lucky”

I continued “What so annoys me on this realization, is for a while linden labs were charging us 1760 USD set up fee, and those of us who bought have nothing to sell but the current set up fee, crazy. I don’t think they actually thought about it to be honest, I think someone said wouldn't it be a good idea if... and the ass lickers chimed in with "yes indeed Mr Linden Sir".
Torrid added “Well for me this is a hobby and my sim is a role play sim. It is dealing with the constant complaints and whining that I am tired of dealing with or paying to entertain others”.

This prompted Chade, “I have argued with tenants for hours about it is better for them to rent from me than to buy...but I finally gave up....now I say if you want to pay me to take risk be my guest”.

Meanwhile, I was typing, “So maybe it is a result of many things, miss conceptions, poor thinking and the inability for Linden Labs to refute a misconception, instead they let it roll and roll and roll, and after five thousand sales, tell us the way they think it should be. I too tire now of constant wining, but now as I am more in OpenLifegrid then SecondLife , I don’t care, I rent my regions out for cost plus vat and if they stay they stay , if they leave, I sell or close the island. I have some good friends on my regions now, not just 'customers' so it is theirs as long as they stay.”

“I found giving them their own rights etc took a weight of work away from me”, I said and continued with “, best thing I did, they sort it out themselves instead of asking me all the time”.

Maybe the Lindens did get it wrong, but what seems to matter now, is they are getting too much too wrong and it is causing people to leave, and tired of their indecision and constant rule changes. The only constant seems to be the need for the Lindens to treat us like cash sources and find ways to soak us for more money. Changing their promises is a defacto standard in Second Life and more and more it becomes ‘caveat Emptor’

Exploring Virtual worlds that come with 45000 prims and NO TIER FEE

I have started another blog, with separate interest, but if you ever wanted a development area, to sharpen your skills or create content for second life, this has to be a solution.
Read OpenSim Blog

Letter to Linden Labs CEO

Dear Mr Linden.

I enjoyed being able to rent out sims to your customers. I bought islands, they made communities. I and my friends were proud of your customers and felt good about the fair offer we made. We offered a nice place to live, with enough rules to keep it safe and simple. People loved it. I grew the business to a dozen islands. Then this year, our customer started to leave, in ones and twos and then more. They were going to open sims. You were selling them so cheap and with the uneven playing field, USA sellers were selling at 10% profit, far less than the tax of 17.5% I had to pay. I could not compete.



As my islands emptied I sold some at a loss to other players or gave them away or even had them switched off. You were getting over 4000 USD a month from me, solid payments and I was just a small fry. I, and others like me, more than paid our way.



Permit me, but your biggest mistake was failing to come to the land owners that had been earning you the money first and explaining that you were having an issue with loading of the Open Space sims. I feel terribly confident, the skills gained by others like myself, would have been able to create sound and simple objectives to enable you to redefine the way sims are used and charged for, and we could have done it without the massive disruption your announcement has created.



It is too late now of course, as the gaffe is blowing up now badly, but then my island holding has dwindled to one full sim and four voids. You have hurt me a great deal. You have hurt many of my friends and competitive enemies alike. We have lost faith in your ability to manage the second life experience to any positive degree Jack. I am hoping I get to sell what few sims I have left so that I can gracefully face a reduced holding without losing too much money. Jack, you didn’t communicate with your customers. Something we have been asking for since day one.


Yours


River Ely

CEO Rivers-Islands.Com

VAT Registered

Linden labs increase the cost of ownership and destroy a fragile economy.

I learned today...

the Lindens posted this:

Effective Immediately

We will no longer allow the Owner of an Openspace to be changed to a different resident than the Payor. Initially we will not enforce this change on Openspaces where the Payor and Owner are already different but in those cases the only change allowed will be to set the Owner back to the Payor. This doesn’t affect the parcel level rentals, this is just focussed on the whole region rental of Openspaces.

We will no longer offer an educational or non-profit discount for new Openspaces. As mentioned earlier, this is due to the increased back end resource required for us to support Openspaces in the way that they are now being used. For the small number of Educators that already have Openspaces, we will be contacting you directly to discuss this change.

Next, we will be making changes to the viewer that enable residents to know precisely what type of land or region they are on so that the land market remains as fair and easy to understand as possible. So expect to see changes that much more clearly display to residents whether they are on Linden Mainland or Private Estate, whether it is a Normal region or Openspace and what that means. This will affect various aspects of the Viewer including the inworld Search along with the About Land and Buy Land screens. Making Land easier to understand will benefit everyone, especially new users looking to step onto the property ladder for the first time.

Lastly we will begin to proactively discuss overloaded Openspaces with their owners. This is important because as with abuse of region resources, a heavily overloaded Openspace can adversely affect other Openspaces sharing the same machine which is clearly unfair to residents who are using them responsibly. We have listened to your feedback on this, and agree that we need to make changes to better support our Openspace users by actively working to keep the performance levels as high as possible. We will also provide some detailed guidance about what ‘overuse’ looks like and how to prevent it.

So to recap:

• Openspace prices and fees change on the 1st January with no grandfathering.
• Class 4 Openspaces will be upgraded to class 5 in January.
• Educator discount is no longer available for Openspaces.
• No Owner switching for Openspaces unless it’s a full transfer of Payor.
• More proactive education by support staff to prevent unfair resource use by Openspace regions.

http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/10/27/openspace-pricing-and-policy-changes/#more-2721


I went to a town hall meetimng, here is the content:

[4:51] SexyAnn Ashley: If Linden Labs does not want the Open Spaces on the Gride by Estate Owners in how they are Used Jack then refund them ------ Offer those with 4 or more to make them all Full Sims for Free and refund the People with 3 or less and Credit thier account thier value of $250 USD
[4:51] Omicron HUD 1.4: Kaio Obviate : 12 m SE 0
[4:51] Coal Edge: In a way it does seem we are paying for LL making the mistake of thinking 4 open spaces could run on one core
[4:52] Careltje Phoenix: performance have never been optimal ever .. will this mean you have more money to spend on better perfomance ?
[4:52] Jack Linden: Stephen: I totally understand the frustration. And we'll be reading every piece of feedback we get and considering every option available, as we always do.
[4:52] Master Quatro: we are definitely paying the price for bad mistakes .. misjudgements and overall incompetence ..
[4:52] Simone Stern: Why were prim limits set and then not expected to be used accordingly?
[4:52] shazzray Streeter gave you Changes in tiers - IMPORTANT.
[4:52] SexyAnn Ashley: Refund the ones of 3 or less and force all others to be full sims and just take them off the market
[4:52] Rene Erlanger: yes refund everyone,,,,and we'll in turn past the refunds to all the residents
[4:52] Jenniferbugg Blackflag: You can't sit there as Lindens and tell me verbally on the phone "Hey you know since you own a full region that you can buy an openspace sim for 250.00 and 75.00 a month in tiers" trying to talk me into it as many Lindens have and now expect me to pay more money in January out of all times after Christmas when everyone needs their money the most, This is nuts and a nightmare! This is not real life but second life, who wants to pay all that money for a 3D chat program that's not in fact real? Not me...Not anymore!
[4:53] RachelLynn Lane: Because the didn't test Havok4 correctly on the open sims
[4:53] Stephen Psaltery: It is is completely within your right to raise prices when you want, Jack, but Linden Lab holds some responsibility here. This is EXACTLY like the telehub fiasco. I think we need to see some compensation now just like then. I think the fee to conert opensims back to regular sims should be FREE for current opensim owners only. Let us get out of this with our skins intact.
[4:53] Totem Flow: how can you be considering every option, when you have already announced your plans???
[4:53] Rene Erlanger: no one would have bought open space sims back in April other than personal use.......if you told them to expect a 67% increase by Jan 08
[4:53] Coal Edge: It isnt that the software there isnt doing the right job, apparantly if we are to understand this correctly, its the people OVER USING the new system
[4:53] Coal Edge: that is making it "break down"
[4:53] RachelLynn Lane: They didn't have correct ideas about how many prims os could support on havok 4
[4:53] Diamond Meness: Linden labs definately needs to think this one over again
[4:53] Jack Linden: Muli: no we are not. we're a privately owned company
[4:54] Laurynna Bailey: Ok Jack, so you now how most of us are feeling.......what other solution can you offer us so that it's a fair compromise??
[4:54] Master Quatro: this land thing has been so mismanaged .. I've run 3 real life companies all bigger then LL .. and you all would have been fired for the gross negligence and mismanagement
[4:54] Clubside Granville: It's not just prims Simone, while they were raised in anticipation of performance increases from Havok 4 and MONO, scripts, assets (in particular textures) and other needs have contributed to problems not only on the OpenSpaces themselves but the Grid in general, if I understand Jack's answer to me earlier.
[4:54] Kayleigh McMillan: isn't their an other sulation such as making open spaces available indeed for 75 us but with other ristrictions?
[4:54] Careltje Phoenix: lol master
[4:54] Rene Erlanger: Do you have an Economist on board at LL?
[4:54] Simone Stern: I agree. We didnt 'blatantly misuse and abuse' LL policy as set. We ADHERED to it, and now we're about to be punished for it. Conversion back to FULL SIM should be free.
[4:54] Kaio Obviate: Jack, this is disastrous decision. You really need to think about it more seriously
[4:54] Master Quatro: this is la la land .. not a business
[4:54] Coal Edge: This is a small voice of the true people affected, we are being told "pay more for what you are using, and by the way, use LESS of it too"
[4:54] Master Quatro: with customer care .. client concern
[4:54] Kristina Simon: hi everyone
[4:55] Kayleigh McMillan: hi kristina:-)
[4:55] Master Quatro: MBA University of Illinois
[4:55] Jack Linden: yes, that is why I'm here - to talk to as many people as possible and get your feedback.
[4:55] Clubside Granville: Howdy
[4:55] Kristaki Hudson: Jack why u dont u plan to keep actuall all open spaces sim son secondlife at hte actual pries and new sims pruchased then at u new price politic so all ppl which invested so much money in sl not to sink.... even our land are rented i mean think of all of us which trusted in u new land sotre whic is vey good and the prices u did on new land stored
[4:55] Diamond Meness: Over all feedback....this is NOT acceptable
[4:55] Diamond Meness: lol
[4:55] RachelLynn Lane: It's in the forums ... you have enough info already
[4:55] SexyAnn Ashley: If you want the Open Sim Problem stopped
1) tell everyone to convert to full sims that have 4 or more
2) Refund any that are less then 4 left over
3) Problem solved without a Economical Problem and Pissing off the people that spend the most money in Second Life
[4:55] Laurynna Bailey: You HAVE our FEEDBACK.........but what WILL you now CHANGE to make this workable and fair????
[4:55] Careltje Phoenix: will our feedback change the plans allready made Jack ?
[4:55] Omicron HUD 1.4: Kayleigh McMillan : 10 m SE 0
[4:55] RachelLynn Lane: we are thru talking ... we want to HEAR YOU
[4:55] JohnnyD Posthorn: I have 2 of my buddies in IM right who I bought 4 Openspace sims on their behalf - they are abandoning the lot. They are (quite rightly) furious as they have been ripped off
[4:55] RachelLynn Lane: JACK
[4:55] Dimentox Travanti: I am just kinda sad ill loose my Development land for DCS .... LOL not really pissedor mad.. It was a loss leader and always will be
[4:56] Simone Stern: Conversion back to Full sims should be without charge.
[4:56] Firelight Simca: You have a rough job, Jack.
[4:56] Coal Edge: First of all, telling us we are abusing what we paid for is sort of harsh, the blog to me did not accept responsibility for the back end issues, it put the blame on US for using what was SOLD to us
[4:56] River Ely: hate to say it, but I support the idea of returning the openspace sims to their orioginal design, four at a time, one attached to a full sim, low prim count, very low prim count. then maybe we island owners can sell land again, cos for now we are struggling
[4:56] Kristina Simon: i have just split 5 fullsims into open sims. thanks to this policy i am ruined
[4:56] Stephen Psaltery: Jack, please be honest.. does our feedback mean anything? Or is this just a move to calm the riot and continue?
[4:56] Fahra Fawcett is Offline
[4:56] Jack Linden: SexyAnn.. free conversions to normal regions is an option. We'll give that some thought if it would help
[4:56] Careltje Phoenix: JACK does this feedback change any of the plans allready been made ?
[4:56] RachelLynn Lane: Come on Jack talk it up
[4:56] Stephen Psaltery: Jack, yes. Free conversions is what we want.
[4:56] RachelLynn Lane: tell us something
[4:56] Diamond Meness: Why are decisions like this constanly mad without even asking for our opion before LL makes up it mind
[4:57] Coal Edge: Jack, if we are to pay more, how likely is it that we can reduce the amount of open spaces on one core by half,
[4:57] Elvis Orbit: Reduction in Regular SIm fees woudl be nice as well ....
[4:57] Stephen Psaltery: It's the LEAST we can do.
[4:57] Coal Edge: atleast make it worth it, since you DID increase your income to make up for it
[4:57] Diamond Meness: As we are the affected parties
[4:57] Master Quatro: half my clients are leaving they will not pay the increase .. so what do i do with the OS sims .. yes it was my decision to buy them and my risk .. but I had to trust that LL is an ethical business that cares about its clients and not put them out of business
[4:57] Firelight Simca: Yes, free conversions to normal sims would help.
[4:57] SexyAnn Ashley: Free conversions would calm alot of these issues Jack
[4:57] Careltje Phoenix: jack please awnser . will this feedback change any of the plans allready been made ?
[4:57] Yukiko Omegamu: to be blunt theres 3 of the bigestest estates in sl are effected and many others that have alot are also some are too busy to come and this situation is forceing them to reconsidering abandoning them dropping over 1400+ sims altogethor
[4:57] SexyAnn Ashley: and a credit to accounts to those who want them would too
[4:57] Spike Linden: Guys, there are multiple questions being answered and Jack only have two hands.. please give him a chance to respond. [4:57]
[4:57] Omicron HUD 1.4: Xandi Mars : 5 m NE + 1
[4:57] Omicron HUD 1.4: lilly Margetts : 6 m NE 0
[4:57] Jack Linden: Careltje; feedback is essential, of course. the problems are clear. if it makes sense for us to change tack, as with any area of policy, we would review it.
[4:57] Coal Edge: and conversions do not help those of us who bought them for actual personal uses, I own 2, so that does not help me
[4:57] Omicron HUD 1.4: Arvik Gustafson : 3 m W 0
[4:57] Femina Matahari is Online
[4:58] Simone Stern: Conversion back to Full sims should be without charge.
[4:58] Rene Erlanger: Trust has been dead along time ago......this is just another nail in the coffin.......for some it will be the one that takes them over the edge
[4:58] Careltje Phoenix: ty jack
[4:58] RachelLynn Lane: Ditto me on Rene
[4:58] Pippen Sonnenblume: Jack... you are TELLING us nothing right now...
[4:58] Clubside Granville: Jack, maybe if we better understood how the internet pipes were tied to regions... do four OpenSpaces also share a single pipe like they do a CPU/Core? Is their bandwidth pressure as more of these are actively in use? Are bottlenecks forming as more distinct regions are actively used (as in occupied by any number of avatars greater than zero)?
[4:58] Jack Linden: Coal: interesting question. I'd have to look into that
[4:58] Xandi Mars: oh you just rezzed
[4:58] Omicron HUD 1.4: Innula Zenovka : 5 m W 0
[4:58] Equinox Pinion: free conversion is nothing..what about all the people who build up their homes on OS..they will loose everything
[4:58] [9] Femina Matahari: sling
[4:58] Xandi Mars: sorry for the butt action
[4:58] Omicron HUD 1.4: Femina Matahari : 2 m SE 0
[4:59] Dimentox Travanti: yeah conversion would kill me.. LOL i have no plans to move my personal dev place to a full island its not feasable
[4:59] Jack Linden: Clubside.. yes. the 4 openspaces on a CPU share not just the cpu, but also the Memory for all 16 on that server, and the bandwidth for all 16 too
[4:59] Equinox Pinion: i have 100 OS sims...and i know...only 2 of them have heavy traffic
[4:59] Jack Linden: a very loaded openspace can and does impact all 16 on that server if it's bad enough
[4:59] Master Quatro: you guys just don't get it .. CUSTOMERS count .. they pay your bills .. your salaries .. you are putting us out of business
[4:59] SexyAnn Ashley: 1) Free Conversion
2) Credit people thier acount to abandon the Open sims to thier next month tiers on thier Full sims
3) then you have 90% of the Open sims off the Market
[4:59] Diamond Meness: Conversion would not be helpful for me either
[4:59] Equinox Pinion: you are just not telling the true about the usage on them
[4:59] Coal Edge: I agree that 4 per core, and eating the other resources can be a big tax, I do think something fair would be to give us more for what we pay for, not in prims but
[4:59] Coal Edge: reliability
[5:00] Clubside Granville: That explains a lot as local rendering gets such a narrow pipe causing slower calls to the distributed asset and presence services...
[5:00] Equinox Pinion: i doubt there are 5% who abuse the usage
[5:00] Femina Matahari: so you increase the tier fee and the europeans also pay more VAT and the gap widens
[5:00] Coal Edge: reducing the load in half would help hardware wise
[5:00] Equinox Pinion: and you blame us all for it!
[5:00] Totem Flow: Target the abusers, send warnings.. emails anything... god its not difficult
[5:00] Careltje Phoenix: agrees with femina
[5:00] Rush Gastel: getting bent over a barrel and shafted sounds right to me
[5:00] Diamond Meness: I agree Totem
[5:00] Dimentox Travanti: LOL how about making the OS sims use the cpu of their main FUll island jack?
[5:00] Femina Matahari: I sold or closed 6 sims already in the last 2 months
[5:00] Diamond Meness: Targe the abuser
[5:00] Krell Shinohara: cap performance on OS sims do not take more money
[5:00] RachelLynn Lane: agrees with femina, coal, equinox, totme
[5:00] Diamond Meness: get them
[5:00] Equinox Pinion: you should inscrease the tier for OS which are used heavy...not for homes!!
[5:01] SexyAnn Ashley: then you are working with the heart of the SL community not just pissing everyone off during a resession and during the Holidays
[5:01] Kristina Simon: me too femina.
[5:01] Equinox Pinion: or sailing areas
[5:01] Master Quatro: these 2 issues are being linked together .. they are not .. they are separate .. one is technical the other is gouging
[5:01] Femina Matahari: I will close the rest if there is no drop in tier fee
[5:01] Elvis Orbit: They sound not be able to run any more than they can, allowign to do them to do so is a mistake
[5:01] Jenniferbugg Blackflag: This is quite a shock to me that my hands are even shaking in real life, it's a shame that you people have to upset people so badly it effects your real life, all I know is if I'm billed come January for more money, I'll be contacting an attorney regarding this matter, As I said you as Lindens cannot verbally tell me something on the phone and tell me I can get an openspace for 250.00 an only pay 75.00 a month and I wind up buying 2 and what I pay now in tiers is bad enough, I haven't even had my openspaces for a whole year yet and you do this!
[5:01] perfumed Odets: free conversion back to Full prim regular sim would help, Jack...in some way
[5:01] Kristina Simon: and for the same reason
[5:01] Jack Linden: okay so here is a question; do you think us pinning prim counts down to say 1500, and limiting script count to 250, would be acceptable if the price stayed as it now? I'm not suggesting this is possible, but I'm interested in your opinions
[5:01] Alexandra Fallon: The underestimation on LL's part that people might actually push it, use ALL of what they can is what is punishing us now. So, because LL underestimated a human's ability, we pay?!
[5:01] Kristina Simon: NO
[5:01] RachelLynn Lane: PFF JACK
[5:01] Dimentox Travanti: The script count is a bit low... The prim count i could care less about
[5:01] Kristina Simon: NP
[5:02] Omicron HUD 1.4: Rush Gastel : 2 m SW 0
[5:02] Rush Gastel: how about a rfund on purchase price
[5:02] Careltje Phoenix: I think that will help jack .. reduce so ppl cant abuse anymore
[5:02] RachelLynn Lane: YES MULI
[5:02] Femina Matahari: NO
[5:02] RachelLynn Lane: THEY TESTED WRONGLY AND NOW WE PAY
[5:02] Femina Matahari: it wouldnt
[5:02] Coal Edge: Jack, that IS a start, but thats lower prim wise than we originally received for the 50 if I am not mistaken
[5:02] Krell Shinohara: i would think with a higher prim count and limited scripts it would be an option
[5:02] Coal Edge: 50 tier I ment
[5:02] Krell Shinohara: higher than 1500 i mean
[5:02] Clubside Granville: It certainly would solve the problem faced by the sailing community raised by MarkTwain, Jack...
[5:02] Kristina Simon: why don't you limit the avatars to 10 ! this would be acceptable
[5:02] Equinox Pinion: or clients limit on them
[5:02] Kaio Obviate: no hostage business raise prices when they cant support their own services
[5:02] Master Quatro: we pay for your incompetence
[5:02] Omicron HUD 1.4: Krell Shinohara : 6 m SW 0
[5:02] Dimentox Travanti: for 1500 prim and 250 scripts id expect to pay about 50 in tier
[5:03] Simone Stern: Conversion back to Full sims should be without charge.
[5:03] Kayleigh McMillan: sounds fair for a lower price because of the land stays the same size it would be to empty
[5:03] Femina Matahari: why dont you just close sl by christmas
[5:03] Margot LaSalle: pinning down to half prims than what we have now is like keeping the current prims of 3750 and increasing the price by 100%. Personally, I would want you to limit agents count and have openspace owners agree thatn their openspaces will not be used for clubs or commercial areas
[5:03] SexyAnn Ashley: if you change the current options to the Open sims you need to give the Estate Owners a Fair Option

Like a refund a Credit only on thier Full Sims Tiers

Not just suddenly change the Pricing or the Features to the Open Space Sims
[5:03] Krell Shinohara: keep prim counts as they are now limit scripts and number of AV's
[5:03] River Ely: Jack, please listen to your customers, we are tired of constantly paying for your mistakes and random changes. we are addicted to the Second life, but that does not mean we enjoy paying over and over while you cheat and rob us.
[5:03] Rush Gastel: i'll be happy with a refund on purchase price i dont want anything to do with you and your land
[5:03] Jack Linden: Simone: that is certainly possible
[5:03] RachelLynn Lane: I can tell you that MY plans are to FREEZE
[5:03] Yukiko Omegamu: the prim count is fine the avatar count should be limited the sciptuseage should be considered just as a reg sim
[5:03] Femina Matahari: you shafted us enough in the last two years
[5:03] Krell Shinohara: AN NO PRICE RISES
[5:03] RachelLynn Lane: I'm not buying another single anything from Lindens
[5:03] Coal Edge: Well, at this point I think Jack is trying to listen
[5:03] Dimentox Travanti: Maybe the solution is a MIDlevel Sim,, aka OS sim low prim low script, MIDLEVEL high prim limited agents like 40, and full island the full monty
[5:03] Coal Edge: itsj ust finding the answer to listen to
[5:03] Talin Sands: why not off options ?....choice....3700 prim 20 script.....1000 prim 300 scrips....somthing like that ..
[5:03] Totem Flow: Does LL actually realise how much money they will lose if all the private estate owners walk?
[5:04] Master Quatro: I hope a good attorney takes this up as a pro-bono case and takes you to court . This is so unconscionable .. and TOS won't help in court .. you can't use TOS to deceive people
[5:04] Margot LaSalle: it would also be good if every 4 of our sims were hosted on the same server so that we can monitor the performance
[5:04] Jenniferbugg Blackflag: Yes you refund on what I paid for my openspaces since it was you Lindens who told me about openspaces in the first place and what the prices were and I won't seek legal action, fair enough?
[5:04] Equinox Pinion: Jakc...why can you not just limit the agents on them??????
[5:04] Femina Matahari: you want more incom put your bloody mainland sims up to the same price as estates
[5:04] DigitalJack Blackhawk: the numbers would have to be tested to be truely fair, some objects have the same script running 20x but under mono that script would run 1x and accessed 20x so as long as the 20 scripts dont go against the 250 limit, 250 would work (with mono compiled scripts)
[5:04] Kristina Simon: me neither rachel: this is the third time i have to eat their policy change. i am so rid of it
[5:04] Omicron HUD 1.4: Wagahai Oddfellow : 1 m SW 0
[5:04] Jack Linden: Coal: thanks. and yes I am. keep it constructive please. I'm here because I know how signficant this change is. So let's talk it through
[5:04] Careltje Phoenix: well the fact is .. if LL keeps doing these *surprise* acts on residents.. SL will always be unstable .. I live here for 4 years now .. and I dont see many old players anymore . they all left due to to many *surprises* allready .. how does LL see its future with only new people or will it be able to keep long time players aswell >?
[5:04] RachelLynn Lane: OK TALK JACK
[5:04] Coal Edge: We need ideas to make it better, not complain of how its worse, we all agree it hurts us as customers in the pocket
[5:04] Rush Gastel: computers get cheaper and computing power increases so why are our prices going up
[5:05] Coal Edge: but we can maybe get something worked out
[5:05] Jack Linden: Equinox: currently we don't technically have that feature, as estate owners can reset it
[5:05] River Ely: Set your mainland prices to the SAME, as the island estates, and make VAT INCLUSIVE like any other decent business, not a one sided tax applied to Europeans and not the Americans
[5:05] Pippen Sonnenblume: Jack... why would you charge the same price for less prims than the original 1875 for OS>>>
[5:05] Master Quatro: unfortunately Coal this is just one in a series of bad decisions .. that we the funders of SL have to pay for
[5:05] Jack Linden: Pippen, it was just a number as part of a theorteical question.
[5:05] Krell Shinohara: hear hear on the VAT comment
[5:05] Coal Edge: and Jack, have you tried to see how putting the OS sims back to atleast where they were originally, to see how that would go
[5:05] River Ely: one price for all players for all land types would be fair
[5:05] Equinox Pinion: but it would be an easy change to do..wouldnt it and it would solve all our problem
[5:05] Dimentox Travanti: and there in lies the problem "currently we don't technically have that feature, as estate owners can reset it"
[5:05] Femina Matahari: because pippen they want to rip you off
[5:05] Coal Edge: its not 1500, but its atleast a little better
[5:06] Coal Edge: I ment in a test environment of course
[5:06] Jack Linden: Coal: many are already way past 1875 prims.
[5:06] Master Quatro: fix the technical issues .. and treat the tier increases as a separate issue
[5:06] RachelLynn Lane: Again It's SL's technical ineptitude as their best defense?
[5:06] Coal Edge: running the images of heavy sims
[5:06] Kayleigh McMillan: afk
[5:06] Omicron HUD 1.4: lilly Margetts : 6 m NE 0
[5:06] RachelLynn Lane: comeon if you can chang ethe prim limit you can change everything else
[5:06] Clubside Granville: Rush, that has always been my comment... unfortunately the changes to the backend have been few and far between on the primary culprits (the presence engine in particular), so until the infrastructure becomes the focus rather than the front end newer hardware can only goose performance so much...
[5:06] Coal Edge: well, yes, but... I am sure going down in prim is better to most than going up in price
[5:06] Rush Gastel: of course we are you gave us 3750 youd use them to if you bought them
[5:06] River Ely: one price for any peice of land, mainland or estate, one prive with VAT inclusive,
[5:06] King Pascale: I have nothing better to do... than discuss with all my customers about the changes..... yeah.....
[5:06] Femina Matahari: Tier increase means I close all sims and become another freeloading avatar
[5:06] Diamond Meness: Send the Estate Owner an email Jack...tell them to cut their pim and script usage down
[5:07] SexyAnn Ashley: Jack please listen to this


Have a Option for people to get a Credit for thier Open Space sims if 3 or under and convert all others for free and if they don't do it then they accept the Tier price increse and make the sims that pay that tier work better then they do currently
[5:07] Diamond Meness: but dont pusnish the majority of us who do stay within the guide lines
would go up across the board, for everyone. We all share the same market.
[5:07] Alexandra Fallon: Clearly if they decrease our prims after our purchase, that is bait and switch. No company wants to be accused of that.
[5:07] Master Quatro: Jack does the fact that people here are selling private full sims at $300 to $500 have any impact on you ? We paid $1675 for some of those sims .. is this good business ?
[5:07] Omicron HUD 1.4: Angely Larsson : 6 m + 3
[5:07] DigitalJack Blackhawk agrees with SexyAnn Ashley
[5:07] Jack Linden: SexyAnn: something like that is feasible
[5:07] Simone Stern: Conversion back to full sim for free.
[5:07] Jack Linden: We'll look at that
[5:07] Omicron HUD 1.4: Alora Jewell : 6 m NW 0
[5:07] Careltje Phoenix: Iwould like to see LL busnessplan for the comming year .. is it based on new players or is it based on keeping long time residents
[5:07] Simone Stern: That's the best option at this point.
[5:08] Jack Linden: Careltje: both are important.
[5:08] Rush Gastel: i just lost my trust in linden labs
[5:08] Coal Edge: The fact also, those of us who DID pay 250 for a open space setup, even if we tried to sell them to someone who wanted it
[5:08] Xandi Mars: any chance of delaying the increase..... until the real world is a bit more stable?
[5:08] Equinox Pinion: I dont get the problem for you jack...what are the additional costs you have the the OS sims
[5:08] Coal Edge: the 100.00 of transfer makes it useless
[5:09] Alexandra Fallon: So, since we are to be punished for LL's bad judgement call on the usage of openspace, how is LL being punished?
[5:09] Jack Linden: Equinox: let me try to explain..
[5:09] Yukiko Omegamu: why not raise mainland teirs so their on par with private estates no offence or anything but mainland is more abused then private estates
[5:09] Careltje Phoenix: well I would like to see that worked out then jack .. because if LL looks closely .. the surprises chased many long time players off allready and looking in this wroom .. some more will leave again
[5:09] Clubside Granville: Careltje, I would think the long-running issue of retention will remain the focus over this and any upcoming year... lol
[5:09] Xandi Mars: 6 months or so
[5:09] Diamond Meness: What if it's not an option to some of us to return our open spaces if we have 3 or less......what are u saying...well since u donthave more money invested you dont count?
[5:09] Equinox Pinion: please..
[5:09] tom007 Flow: and people from third world countrys wont have a hope in hell to join sl they live on 70 us a month i vote for majoraity
[5:09] Diamond Meness: no...something needs to be worked out for everyone on all levels...thats fair
[5:09] Careltje Phoenix: lol yes club
[5:09] King Pascale: Nobody will pay more for lag-estate -.- and LL earn more with Mainland... so there isnt a reason to rise it up
[5:09] Rush Gastel: i work hard creating lovely thing to make sl a better polace and everything goes to you guys now you want more
[5:09] Omicron HUD 1.4: tom007 Flow : 5 m S 0
[5:10] Rush Gastel: so dirty of you
[5:10] Rene Erlanger: Tom.....Ll has never been in touch with world economics and what other countiries average salaries are
[5:10] Equinox Pinion: King...i have a 56 sims connected OS estaste...and it doesnt lag!!!!
[5:10] Jack Linden: we have been selling OS regions as a quarter of a normal region. But the land area is the same. So, lets say normal regions have a load of 1, you'd expect Openspaces if used as originally intended to have a load of 0.25. But in fact they have a load of over 0.5
[5:10] River Ely: you kno that sims are emptying already, I have lost six or seven, that is your income reduced, follow up with these changes and that loss will hit you harder as many others elect to no longer pay your scary rates
[5:10] DigitalJack Blackhawk: i own mainland, full & os I just feel 3x jinxed recently
[5:10] tom007 Flow: we need to be ffair guys
[5:10] Jack Linden: So that really adds up to a lot of extra load on servers with 16 Openspaces on
[5:10] Rene Erlanger: if they did......they would surely lower tiers right across the board, to make it more affordable to all of its SL ciitizens
[5:10] Dimentox Travanti: Jack why not bill based upon load?
[5:10] Coal Edge: Jack, that even more shows the amount of OS on the box needs to be lessened
[5:10] Jack Linden: Rather than an Openspace server = Normal server in load, it's actually double
[5:10] Virtouse Lilienthal: or how about restricting the load?
[5:10] Master Quatro: just give us a way out
[5:10] RachelLynn Lane: AND Why didn't you know this before?
[5:11] Grascious Streeter is Offline
[5:11] Master Quatro: and we will be happy
[5:11] SexyAnn Ashley: No What I said is this
if you have more then 4 Open spaces have Linden labs Convert the 4 you have for free to a Full sim
if you have less then 4 then you get a Credit of USD toward your Full Sims Tiers so the Estate Owners have an Option
[5:11] Virtouse Lilienthal: I mean you can restrict the number of avatars, the scripting time, etc
[5:11] Equinox Pinion: Can people who are not abusing it not being moved to their server and have 16sims on one??
[5:11] Jack Linden: Rachel: this is an emerging issue, as the number of Openspaces increased, the back end load issues start to be more clear
[5:11] Master Quatro: don't leave us to hang and die .. take responsibility and buy our OS sims back or credit or something ..
[5:11] Stephen Psaltery: Jack. Why weren't hard limits on openspaces not taken as an option instead of this? What was the internal reasoning?
[5:11] Alexandra Fallon: That's a back end problem. We bought something and paid your price, now you change your mind after the money is already yours?
[5:11] Virtouse Lilienthal: There must be just the right scheduler running for that
[5:11] King Pascale: pls rise Agent LIMIT !!!!!!!!!
[5:11] Careltje Phoenix: Jack wouldnt it be best to keep sl economy stable and not change prices up and down ? everyone knows unstable bisness will fale in the end , ppl dont put trust in those companies
[5:11] Diamond Meness: That's not fair to the owners of 3 or less sims SexyAnn
[5:11] Virtouse Lilienthal: it's basically nothing else but a Virtual Machine
[5:11] Simone Stern: Then impose hard limits. Should have been done originally
[5:12] Coal Edge: and well, hrm, ok, is there a way technically to start script queueing at a lower point on OS than on normal sims
[5:12] Diamond Meness: openspace sims that is
[5:12] Clubside Granville: As I don't own any OpenSpace regions myself I'm here for some content creators who have talked to me about how this will affect them... many newer creators like the land mass of a full region even with the low prim count as it allows them to spread out their creations and make shopping for their products a bit of an adventure, and their hope is to retain what they have as they don't have the personal resources to support a starting business in another fashion
[5:12] Dimentox Travanti: I suggest you have a soft quota on cpu usage/resources and charge BURST rates with an 2x amount on usage.. just likecolos charge for bandwith....
[5:12] RachelLynn Lane: I've done testing in RL ... someone screwed up with their numbers and saw gold way too soon
[5:12] Virtouse Lilienthal: something like is possible with any virtual servers you can rent
[5:12] Coal Edge: make sure the OS scripts do not have CHANCE to get that high
[5:12] Krell Shinohara: Jack it seems more and more to me that you need to manage the load on the servers... put hard limits on OS
[5:12] Coal Edge: since they have less room already to grow, stop it before it grows
[5:12] Jack Linden: Hard limits for all areas, such as textures, traffic, content etc.. aren't supported currently in the simulator. It's an option down the line but would take time to build and QA
[5:12] RachelLynn Lane: SOooo
[5:12] Dimentox Travanti: cant you just use monitoring and Bill the hell out of the abusers?
[5:12] Coal Edge: I see that would take time, but its a better option than losing customers from this
[5:12] RachelLynn Lane: I think Time is something that is becoming more available all the time ...
[5:13] Totem Flow: then take the time...don't just piss off all your customers in one bolt from the blue
[5:13] Careltje Phoenix: i would sugest .. after this last change . make NO more changes .. *figuring this change is not reversable anymore that would be a cool statement and it would give a lot of us rest and not think * what will happen next , were will they screw us over next time
[5:13] RachelLynn Lane: you should be able to hire QA for a song
[5:13] Virtouse Lilienthal: Jack but you can restrict it by virtualization
[5:13] River Ely: http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=289652
[5:13] Virtouse Lilienthal: like it is done in the VMServers
[5:13] Krell Shinohara: if you took that route Jack rather than increasing prices i think a lot of people would have some respect for LL
[5:13] Simone Stern: So, take the time. We're not goihng anywhere yet, but a price hike without taking more care in finding a solution is going to cause a lot of poeple to log out.
[5:13] Virtouse Lilienthal: that would make it possible to run the same server code
[5:13] Careltje Phoenix: focus on qualitty rather then price issues .. more stabel grids makes for more players and so on
[5:13] Pippen Sonnenblume: Jack... in a nutshell... are you saying that we sim owners are being made to pay for Linden Labs mistakes in judgment???
[5:13] Jack Linden: Dimentox: you mean extra charges based on load? That's in interesting one, but hard to do fairly as load varies continually
[5:13] Virtouse Lilienthal: but the people just simply get lagg
[5:13] Coal Edge: I would think that maybe, you could use tweak the numbers on the current sim to just be lower, unless they really are hard coded
[5:13] SexyAnn Ashley: that is fair because you have to Own 1 Full sim anyhow to Own a Open Sim and you can use that to pay the tiers on the Full sim the $250 USD
[5:13] Kristaki Hudson: Jack Linden Keepth e prices same for hte actual sim OS but dont raise them, and do has u did for the new land stored raise prices but not to all the landlords or investors which trusted in your land and store its gonna be a HUGE MESS me i know what i will do if prices are raised. and i have invested MUCH money on a good tecnology that you do provided and i provided to my customers in secondlife
[5:13] Diamond Meness: i agree Simone
[5:13] Virtouse Lilienthal: and they will know them selves that it is overused
[5:13] Coal Edge: charging based on load goes back to charging a prim tax
[5:13] Coal Edge: from the old days
[5:13] Margot LaSalle: Jack, just apply some limitations to max number of users on any OS and the number of scripts so that you get a load of 0.25 and everything will be fine for everyone.
[5:14] Coal Edge: and I do not feel a viable solution
[5:14] Clubside Granville: RachelLynne, QA isn't an issue of hiring as this issue proves, it took a lot of time on the real grid for these issues to become apparent, you can't really simulate these conditions in a walled garden QA center
[5:14] Dimentox Travanti: Jack you take a cumlitive rate... Look at how ISP charge for bandwith overuse
[5:14] Stephen Psaltery: Jack do you realize how horribly this hurts any confidence? We never know how we are going to be ruined next. Maybe it will be in LL's best interest to drop the value of a linden by half? Do we know? Nope. CAn we plan for it? Nope!
[5:14] RachelLynn Lane: NO Clubside
[5:14] Stephen Psaltery: We need SOME sort of confidence.
[5:14] Equinox Pinion: Wyh dont you wait with that decision till you have a better solution for it on limiting the use of them?
[5:14] Virtouse Lilienthal: But it's actually kind of giving SL the last hit with a dagger what you're planing to do
[5:14] Jenniferbugg Blackflag: Also to continue the rest of my speech above to which I never got a reply to, It's NOT our fault or problem about servers, I know nothing about servers so you can't blame us for something for your servers and make us pay more, that's absurd in itself! If you're still going to be foolish and attempt to raise the prices on openspace sims then you better make it a longer time frame also more then 7 days after billing date for residents to pay their tier fees because if Second Life doesn't get their money in 7 days guess what they suspend you until they get their money!
[5:14] RachelLynn Lane: They knew almost immediately
[5:14] King Pascale: and the most OS are rent out.... when you have too much.. you dont know what the people do on your sim.... and you cant monitoring that...... so maybe you loose OS + Customers or must pay more and you dont know why... that isnt a solution !!!!
[5:14] Virtouse Lilienthal: This will not only affect estates or mainland
[5:14] Omicron HUD 1.4: Kaio Obviate : 10 m SE 0
[5:14] Jack Linden: Simone: yes.. lets keep talking. the price rises are 2 months away.
[5:14] Yukiko Omegamu: the no land owner change is what is making normal residents mad is now they cant buy them and will loook to mainlag sims
[5:14] Omicron HUD 1.4: lilly Margetts : 6 m NE 0
[5:14] Equinox Pinion: instead of just increasing the tier.....that will not help the problem
[5:14] Diamond Meness: To have no option to people who own three or less open space sims is not fiar....eveyrone need a fair option that will work for them
[5:14] Virtouse Lilienthal: no that will also affect any business which is assigned to decorating homes
[5:14] Virtouse Lilienthal: etc
[5:14] tom007 Flow: i would realy use the wisdom of king solomon hear jack it , can have a devastating result , so i wouls seek god over this matter
[5:14] Careltje Phoenix: agreees with stephen , he sais it better then i did :)
[5:15] Alexandra Fallon: No, I think we're having to pay for Linden Labs to hire someone to make these back end changes that will be for the hard limits. So, we're paying for something that should be paid for by LL not US!
[5:15] Virtouse Lilienthal: You're really are going to make a huge mistake
[5:15] Rush Gastel: keep talking more like run and hide and do itt anyway
[5:15] Careltje Phoenix: its a matter of trust I think now ..
[5:15] Equinox Pinion: the people who are using them for living will have to give them up and people who are abusing the rules will pay the higher tier
[5:15] Virtouse Lilienthal: the economy will crash like it did in RL
[5:15] Alora Jewell: I personally would vote for the script restriction and the AV restriction leaving the prims and price as is
[5:15] Virtouse Lilienthal: and it will be even worse for you :(
[5:15] Simone Stern: FANTASTIC. Let's find some compromise here. Let's remember we are in this as a team. As it is, it begins to feel like you're pitching for the opposing team.
[5:15] Rene Erlanger: So after the horse has bolted.......you want to penalise your customers?
[5:15] Equinox Pinion: i agree alora
[5:15] Kristina Simon: me too alora
[5:15] Jack Linden: Stephen: despite your frustration on this issue, do you think we have become better at being open and discussing these issues in advance of them taking place?
[5:15] Diarmuid Miklos: i agree with alora
[5:15] River Ely: bait and switch sounds like an apt description here.
[5:15] Rush Gastel: and i thought mono was going to lower the script times
[5:15] Krell Shinohara: agree with Alora
[5:15] Kayleigh McMillan: me too simone so OS can exist in the original purpose
[5:15] River Ely: so does price gouging
[5:16] Rene Erlanger: because you made a wrong assumption on loads......when you sold us on Open Space sims
[5:16] Coal Edge: I agree to find a way to make the threshold for the OS just lower than a normal sim, give the scripts (fish) a smaller sea to swim in, so to speak
[5:16] Diamond Meness: This wasnt discussed by the Estate Owners......we just got a blog saying oh...hello...yeah we are increasing.....
[5:16] SexyAnn Ashley: if Lindens credit your account for 3 or less Open sims $250 USD each for your Open sims and forced all others that not agree to the New Pricing---
I think that is fair to everyone
[5:16] Jack Linden: Simone: exactly. I would hope we all want the best for Second Life ultimately.
[5:16] Margot LaSalle: Jack, discussing about it but proceeding with the initial decision doesn't offer us much, I'm afraid :)
[5:16] RachelLynn Lane: And they knew it
[5:16] Pippen Sonnenblume: Jack... there WAS no discussion... LL arbitralily made the statement that prices will RAISE in January 2009
[5:16] Yukiko Omegamu: before making a change like this again CONTACT US BEFORE HAND so we know what the hell is going on
[5:16] RachelLynn Lane: they knew it by the first or second upgrade to Havok 4
[5:16] Diamond Meness: How is that fair SexyAnn if we are using them?
[5:16] Simone Stern: Exactly, no options were presented.
[5:16] King Pascale: HIRE PEOPLE !!! which check what the people do on the OS ..... when we pay for every OS 1USD more per month.... you can hire alot of people which play police !!!!
[5:16] Master Quatro: no Jack .. you give us the wrong information .. you entice us to buy buy buy then change the rules .. all this feedback / communication does nothing if you don't listen and help us .. simply being here is not enough
[5:16] RachelLynn Lane: it was in the blog
[5:16] Clubside Granville: It was great that you moved feedback to the Forums, Jack, where the responses could flow and not be constrained by the arbitraty comment restriction of the Blog
[5:17] Virtouse Lilienthal: Jack if it is like that, that you're really want the best for SL, you should really think about the huge negative side effects of this decision
[5:17] Careltje Phoenix: jack, if its only talking with nothing changing in the end .. wat do we *all* gain ? ll and us ? *awnsering your question to stephen
[5:17] Diamond Meness: what if i dont want to turn it in....?
[5:17] Krell Shinohara: Jack as for being open you might have announced the problem to resisdents and started a discussin on how to resolve it.... not announce your price hike solution and annoy everyone first
[5:17] Coal Edge: I think we are all here because we care
[5:17] Femina Matahari: so my open space sim I use for my own home and the one my manager uses for her home are just 2 open space sims total so am I going to lose them
[5:17] Diamond Meness: I do have residents on them
[5:17] Diamond Meness: they are being used
[5:17] Diamond Meness: so No
[5:17] King Pascale: CAN YOU PLEASE RISE THE "AGENT LIMIT"
[5:17] Virtouse Lilienthal: changing the policy ok. Increasing prices for all by 66% is killing loads of businesses
[5:17] Diamond Meness: u are only thinking of people with four or more
[5:17] Coal Edge: the stronger the words from someone, the closer to home it hits
[5:17] Diamond Meness: that's not right
[5:17] Margot LaSalle: we have had RL bubbles in economony, now we have in SL :)
[5:17] Diamond Meness: all have to be considered
[5:17] Kayleigh McMillan: i think they purpose of OS was very clear from the beginning
[5:17] Stephen Psaltery: Yes please Jack WORK WITH US. We understand if you need to increase the prices but we kind of feel like you are BURYING US ALIVE.
[5:17] Innula Zenovka bought her second open space sim from LL just an hour or so before this announcement was made..is feeling a bit irritated
[5:17] Jenniferbugg Blackflag: Can I please have a refund on my openspaces now please? *Holds out hand for money* So I can go back to work as this is obviously a waste of time.
[5:18] Jack Linden: Master: I can't promise action or change in a meeting like this and you wouldn't expect me to, but I can promise to listen and to go back and discuss the community's views with my colleagues.
[5:18] Coal Edge: Jennifer, this is not the place to even say something like that
[5:18] RachelLynn Lane: I think Jenn has the right idea
[5:18] Simone Stern: Hard limits and conversion for free back to full sims.
[5:18] Master Quatro: one difference rl prices are falling .. here they are raised 67% and 150% .. I think Jack and the Lindens took a page from the OPEC playbook
[5:18] Kristina Simon: i lost a client who wantes an OS for SAILING . he is not willing to pay this new tier
[5:18] Alora Jewell: I dont really want a credit, because I would rather keep my sim....but constantly trying to keep up with price fluctuations is too much. An option that does NOT involve us having to cough over more money yet again would be a better one I would think. If its load....decrease the ability to over load by limiting scripts and av's
[5:18] Innula Zenovka: particularly since my first one was compensation from LL for buying my first full sim a day or so before the price cuts in March
[5:18] Omicron HUD 1.4: Wagahai Oddfellow : 1 m SW 0
[5:18] Omicron HUD 1.4: Master Quatro : 4 m SW 0
[5:18] Omicron HUD 1.4: Firelight Simca : 6 m E 0
[5:18] Coal Edge: I dont want a credit either
[5:18] Omicron HUD 1.4: Femina Matahari : 2 m SE 0
[5:18] Omicron HUD 1.4: SexyAnn Ashley : 8 m SE 0
[5:18] Omicron HUD 1.4: King Pascale : 11 m SE 0
[5:18] Coal Edge: I would RATHER we find something that WORKS
[5:18] Coal Edge: most agree
[5:18] Equinox Pinion: I dont want credit! i want to keep my nice sailing estate!!!
[5:18] Diamond Meness: For peple with three sims or more....enforce the Hard Limits of 1800 prims.......and keep the tier the sam
[5:19] RachelLynn Lane: I think it should certainly be an option
[5:19] Careltje Phoenix: i know innula feeling .. i bouthg a sim last year .. 1 week before they announce NO gambling and VAT .. this is the second blow
[5:19] Jenniferbugg Blackflag: It sure is a place to say what I feel, Dee Linden just heard on the phone how I feel and told me to come here so I did, I have a right to say how I feel it's my money
[5:19] Kayleigh McMillan: gives an unsertain feeling indeed Alora all teh price changes
[5:19] Diamond Meness: that's what will work for us
[5:19] Simone Stern: I dont want a credit, but I'll take Lindens hehe :D
[5:19] Coal Edge: and if I am not mistaken, this is a good start
[5:19] Femina Matahari: Like I said you want more money and be fair raise the mainland tier fee to match private islands put us all on a level playing field
[5:19] Diamond Meness: three open space sims*
[5:19] River Ely: jack, your taking advantage of us again, we do not have limitless pockets, we do need including in changes before you implement them, we are your customers, we are IMPORTANT to you and the business you are using to generate YOUR income.
[5:19] Jack Linden: JenniferBugg: yes.. you should feel able to tell us how you feel.
[5:19] Simone Stern: If you need to enact stricter limits, then make it so.
[5:19] Krell Shinohara: i dont want credit i want my OS at the tier im paying now..... limit the avs and scripts
[5:20] Rush Gastel: i for one am really thinking to letthe land go when theese rises take affect
[5:20] Yukiko Omegamu: useage abuse fee on the residents rather then the simowner
[5:20] Dimentox Travanti: I have to run, Thats for the meeting jack, it shows you do want to listen and we do appreciateit
[5:20] tom007 Flow: people are not even making enough money on hear the econamy of making money is just not good for the avarge bussiness person as well , so how can we put up pricess
[5:20] Careltje Phoenix: yay! river !
[5:20] Simone Stern: but upping the price will *surely* kill off the business investment so many people made.
[5:20] Careltje Phoenix: HOO !!:D
[5:20] Equinox Pinion: jack...do you see any problems in limiting scripts and agents on them and if not..why dont you do that`
[5:20] Virtouse Lilienthal: Well Master Quatro they will be 150% for setup fee and 166% for tier fee
[5:20] River Ely: We need to have land at teh same price for mainland and islands and we ned to pay the same rate of tax or you are being europhobic.
[5:20] Diamond Meness: Option ONe: If u have four or more open space sims......offer conversion to full sim for free. If you have three or less OS sims....enforce the Hard Prim limit...keep tier the same.........
[5:20] Virtouse Lilienthal: it's not an increase of 150%
[5:20] Diamond Meness: that's fiar
[5:20] Yukiko Omegamu: the ones abuseing it have to pay the abuse fee
[5:20] Jack Linden: cheers Dimentox
[5:20] Twistit Saiman is Online
[5:20] Diamond Meness: fiar*what about that Jack?
[5:20] Clubside Granville: Femina, Mainland can't upload RAW files, use estate tools, raise/lower terrain more than 5m and you have no control over your neighbors... how does raising proces to match islands make that fair?
[5:20] Krell Shinohara: yes the VAT shamble needs fixing too that ruined my last business
[5:20] Virtouse Lilienthal: an increase of 150% would make the setup price 625L$
[5:20] Kayleigh McMillan: indeed Yukiko but how?
[5:20] Master Quatro: the strategy if there is one .. seems to be to drive land traffic to new themed mainland .. putting us all out of business .. Linden liked our private sim business model
[5:20] Master Quatro: now they have adopted it
[5:21] tom007 Flow: i dont understand this abouse thing , we pay for what we get
[5:21] Jack Linden: Equinox: to fully bolt down the various usage areas of an Openspace technically would take time. But i've taken note of your views on that
[5:21] Innula Zenovka: I've got all sorts of decisions to make between now and January 1..it looks to me as if I'm going to have to start planning on coverting to a second full sim, but now I'm worried there will be another nasty shock when I do that
[5:21] Alora Jewell: if the "prims" themselves are not really causing the load, but only the scripts in them.......scripts and av limitations should be fine......to me it seems the solution is very simple to keep everyone happy no?
[5:21] tom007 Flow: why is that abuse
[5:21] Master Quatro: and are in direct competition .. only they hold all the cards
[5:21] Femina Matahari: oh clubside do you think that is worth the stupidly high ammount we pay
[5:21] Simone Stern: then limit scripts. They cant do that?
[5:21] Femina Matahari: get a life and stop licking linden arses
[5:21] Yukiko Omegamu: well if parel ownership is still allowed and a sim is abused too the point they can charge the resident rather then the sim owner
[5:21] Jack Linden: Master: that simply isn't true. the new mainland areas are a drop in the ocean compared to the volume of estate land sold each month
[5:21] Jack Linden: it's a blip
[5:21] Equinox Pinion: i know it would take time....till then you can be sure that we estate owners would watch it
[5:22] Kayleigh McMillan: sounds good Yukiko
[5:22] Femina Matahari: rubbish Jack
[5:22] Clubside Granville: Not really, Femina, but as a Mainlander I don't want you giving them any ideas! lol
[5:22] Equinox Pinion: i mean we have to work together on this
[5:22] tom007 Flow: i dont see that as abuse if i am paying for what you guys offerd me
[5:22] DigitalJack Blackhawk: in a world where 1$L = .367 of a US penny the increase of OS teir in local economy terms is 13,600$L/mo seems alot harder to make up
[5:22] Femina Matahari: you been dumping land and printing money that way for 18 months
[5:22] Diamond Meness: I I would like to just put the Hard Pim limit on my open space as i dont own four as of yet......and keep the tier the same.
[5:22] Simone Stern: We have two months to find a way to limit script use on Open sims. I think that's a great place to start. And of course free conversion for those who wish it.
[5:22] Coal Edge: If you try to run something that will obviously use a full sims resources, then a slice of that pie will never be enough
[5:22] Yukiko Omegamu: i run a hosting company i charge for abused resources on a daily basis if it persists the resident should be removed from the private estate
[5:22] Jenniferbugg Blackflag: Thank you Jack for finally replying to me. I really in all honestly don't mean to sound rude but honestly I would not come here to express how I feel on this if I felt it was right and supported your raise in tiers for openspaces, I just got mine this past summer and have not even had a chance to enjoy them yet as it is, They aren't worth it for what we pay in tiers now, my full region even as a Class 5 isn't worth 295.00 a month the way it runs on a daily basis, I could rent a real apartment for that much.
[5:22] River Ely: Jack your not right about the land. Mainland is dumped every month and it takes residents away from the islands with its low pricing, hell, your shafting us all the time, and you know it.
[5:22] Femina Matahari: you killed us and you want corporate money now your not interested in us
[5:23] Simone Stern is beginnin to feel like a loopes gesture. =p
[5:23] SexyAnn Ashley: 4 or more Sims offer Free conversions
3 or less offer a Credit or Option to keep with less fuctionality for same Price Or same Fuctionality at the Higher Price.

then you are giving Options if you offer a Credit on the 3 or less Open Spaces
[5:23] Coal Edge: making sure the scripts stay within the chunck they are given seems the best solution
[5:23] Jack Linden: I hear you JenniferBugg. I'm getting slammed in IMs, emails and this chat, doing my best to reply to as much as I can
[5:23] Margot LaSalle: Jack, just set LIMITS to OS, don't raise the tier. Only limits can be a solution to heavy load
[5:23] RachelLynn Lane: This is the true suspect that we all hold ... that some how LL still thinks the corprate world will save us all
[5:23] Master Quatro: Jack it just seems that way .. it may be a drop now .. but whole continents start that way .. I wish i could trust you Jack .. you've deluded me too many times with what you call a "business plan" I don't trust you .. that's where we are at .. it's really too bad .. it's sad
[5:24] Diamond Meness: agrees with Margot
[5:24] River Ely: jack, if you do not want estate owners to sell land and get paid for it, then remove the option of allowing others to own land so that lindens are in tiotal control.
[5:24] Rush Gastel: time to start looking at another grid
[5:24] Jack Linden: Sorry to hear that Master. If you want to discuss it more at a later point we can do that too.
[5:24] Alexandra Fallon: How is a bunch of upset estate owners dumping their OS going to benefit LL in the long run?
[5:24] Master Quatro: LL is quickly losing any trust that was left .. without that you have the Wall street debacle that is playing out right now
[5:24] Diamond Meness: I think the Lidnes are getting paid very well......lol
[5:24] Diamond Meness: i dont think money is the issue
[5:24] RachelLynn Lane: oh ?
[5:25] Jack Linden: River: do you mean disabling estate land sales completely?
[5:25] Kristaki Hudson: Jack Linden Keep the prices actual for actual OS sims but dont raise them its gonna be a mess there be massive abandon of land me i think be good not to raise persons which trusted in new prices and new land store. u price raising is a 25% about....
[5:25] Jack Linden: for openspaces
[5:25] Equinox Pinion: you clearly see that we are all for putting limits on the OS...why dont you try to work something out quick and implementant it
[5:25] Careltje Phoenix: i think many ppl feel like master , jack
[5:25] Elvis Orbit: its liek over selling, seems OS sims were over sold
[5:25] Femina Matahari: Diamond money is always the issue with Lindens
[5:25] Rene Erlanger: my advice....if you clients no longer want to rent ........abandon the SIM and save yourself some future tiers. Its unlikely you'll be able to fill it with another resident paying 50 USD
[5:25] Stephen Psaltery: Jack I think a lot of us a WILLING to be reasonable. Can we set up some kind of structured discussion we we determine what COMPROMISE we can come to? You have to throw us SOME sort of bone.
[5:25] RachelLynn Lane: maybe we all stink or something? how can money not be the issue?
[5:25] Rene Erlanger: just abandon and take the 250 USD hit
[5:25] Coal Edge: Elvis, in a way I actually agree, they were over sold
[5:25] Femina Matahari: it is certainly not a caring attitude
[5:25] Alexandra Fallon: With LL's instability of changing prices at drop of a hat, the general public (I mean residents) see this. They're losing overall trust in LL as a stable and reputable company.
[5:25] Kaio Obviate: money is always the issue for LL.. loading issues could be easly solved by some restrictions.. but money comes furst, even if thers no sense
[5:26] Jack Linden: Stephen, agreed, this is a discussion. Let's see where it goes
[5:26] Rush Gastel: just refund the purchase price and i walk away
[5:26] Diamond Meness: Put restrictions on the S sims........
[5:26] Master Quatro: a couple years ago when the L$ was so unstable .. fluctuating wildly .. LL adopted a solution that brought stabilty to the currency .. mad the L$ trusted and all of us who invest in virtual worlds more secure to do business here .. unfortunately land instability has gotten much worse and no solution
[5:26] Simone Stern: Right. The way this is being solved MAKES IT ABOUT THE MONEY not the loading issues.
[5:26] King Pascale: Cancel the Openspace Sims..... only make Full-Prim Sims........ transform all OS to Full Prim Sims.... than nobody has a problem.........
[5:26] Diamond Meness: and for those who do want a refund...give it to them
[5:26] Equinox Pinion: restrict the OS on the agents
[5:26] Coal Edge: It just never made sense to me the OS were given their own instance to run it, but never coded to actually protect they only used a 4th of what a normal sim would use
[5:26] RachelLynn Lane: EXACTLY SIMONE
[5:26] Jack Linden: King: that's a bold suggestion!
[5:26] Coal Edge: like Jack said, stay within the .25 and not go into .5
[5:26] River Ely: I Jack, you are making it more and more difficult for estate managers to operate, you reduced our investment, you introduced single openspaces, it seems to me that you are eroding our ability to trade daily, it seems to me that is your goal, or why would you use covenants on the new sim areas of main land that feel like estate land, if not to take the customers away, just get it over with if thats what you intend to do. this progressive erosion of our investment is hurting many many sim owners, estate and openspace
[5:26] perfumed Odets: will there be NO tier increase for Full prim Regular sim, jack( like next yr or so)
[5:27] Diamond Meness: all this before breakfast...geesh
[5:27] Diamond Meness: lol
[5:27] RachelLynn Lane: oh shh perfumed
[5:27] Femina Matahari: King do you really think LL will ever refund you after they have your money
[5:27] RachelLynn Lane: don't give them ideas
[5:27] Kayleigh McMillan: i think we need a stabile Tier policy without to much surprices
[5:27] King Pascale: NO
[5:27] King Pascale: I only want... that the OS goes from the Market....
[5:27] Innula Zenovka: that's a very good question from perfumed.. I am worrying what may happen if I convert open spaces to full sims.... another nasty surprise?
[5:27] DigitalJack Blackhawk: its obvious Jack can't reply now and technical aspects isn't his field, Jack is the man on SL economics as such I am very suprised that he didn't open this to discussion prior to making such an announcemnt
[5:28] Simone Stern: Oh HELL no there wont be a full sim tier increase in the middle of this economy .... I'd race anyone to hit the abandon button if there were.
[5:28] Jack Linden: River: I know this is hard, but in all things like this we're basically walking a line trying to balance our own real world business needs with the needs and wished of our customers; it makes decisions like this very difficult
[5:28] Kayleigh McMillan: an increaso of tier like this is to much
[5:28] Wagahai Oddfellow: It goes back to LL's lack of scaling issue - we didn't know it would break at 64k people and not scale well, they didn't know that people would use the openspace as full sims, they didn't know.... just a lack of thinking ahead.. and now they're playing catchup the only way they know how - pricing instead of integrating limits and working on design changes to handle these "unexpected usages"
[5:28] perfumed Odets: ya innula..convering from and to and to again..and if it hits
[5:28] Jack Linden: But we do see it as a discussion, and we do listen
[5:28] Satir DeCuir is Online
[5:28] tom007 Flow: this will hit fox news if its going to be a wroong dessision jack plz use wisdom
[5:28] RachelLynn Lane: Exactly the question that was roaming thru our home office last night ... when do they screw us over on the main sim as well
[5:28] King Pascale: The most customers dont want to pay more for the same... or the same for less..... So our OS will not bring us something..... And i dont want to discuss hours over hours... why the prices goes down.... or the people have less prims...
[5:28] Kayleigh McMillan: that's good more we can not ask but it felt as an bump for most people
[5:28] Kayleigh McMillan: =bumb
[5:29] Rush Gastel: better to comedown on camping bot for screwing up the grid not us open space owners
[5:29] River Ely: jack, if you had held this meeting BEFORE your blog posting I would be inclined to give you more support
[5:29] Jack Linden: no-one has ever sold something like Openspaces before. All of this is new territory, so there are no real world models we can apply to know how things will progress.
[5:29] Omicron HUD 1.4: Krell Shinohara : 6 m SW 0
[5:29] Rush Gastel: 70000 on line yeah and 50% is bots
[5:29] Talin Sands: Jack do you not see that you are using a finacial tool to fix a technical problem..........the only way charging more money will reduce the load is in reducing the number of sims....is that really what LL wants?
[5:29] Femina Matahari: You never listen jack or any lindens you see our words you file them away and you go on your merry way screwing us year after year
[5:29] Yukiko Omegamu: raiseing prices on sim owners isnt the way to go for fixing the abuse of residents that are abuseing the resources your damging us more then the ones abuseing and the abusers will keep abuseing
[5:29] River Ely: ** agrees with RUSH
[5:29] RachelLynn Lane: Crappers Jack ... OS was around before
[5:29] Omicron HUD 1.4: Rush Gastel : 2 m SW 0
[5:29] Diarmuid Miklos: lol @ Rush
[5:29] Kayleigh McMillan: i agree but it could have been a more gentle introduction this is kind of harsh
[5:30] River Ely: BAn the camping bots that are gaming the numbers,
[5:30] Equinox Pinion: I am having OS since 1.5 years!
[5:30] Master Quatro: in my experience if I ever treated a client or customer this way .. I'd be out of business .. and maybe this is inevitable for LL too .. arrogance and lack of customer focus is a sure recipe for failure
[5:30] Simone Stern: You had knowledge of behavior on full sims, you knew people would stuyff everyone and their pixelated DOG on an open shapece sim, Jack, whoever didnt realize that needs to go back to answering phones.
[5:30] Pippen Sonnenblume: As I said half an hour ago... why not solve this simply by pulling all the OS back? Anyone who has 4 or more OS can convert... less than 4, and a credit can be given toward a full sim
[5:30] Alexandra Fallon: Ok, so you sold something and didn't know what you were selling entirely. But, if I go buy a car. The guy at the carlot can't call me a month later and say I can only drive it on Tuesdays.
[5:30] Margot LaSalle: I suggest Prims: 3750, Max Users: 20 and max number of scripts that you will decide, along with any other limitation that would keep one OS to 0.25 load
[5:30] River Ely: identify how many account holders are logged in in the total on line
[5:30] Coal Edge: But Jack, is it true, to your best knowledge, that the OS were sold without making sure the physical box's usage would never go over what it would for one sim/4?
[5:30] Jack Linden: by the way.. i see a ton of you have direct IMed me.. apologies that I haven't replied. too much text! :)
[5:30] Equinox Pinion: you could see from these sims what the load will be
[5:30] Yukiko Omegamu: go after the abusers and tell the estate owners that have abused sims
[5:30] King Pascale: whats with the REal Estate Market.... ? It crashed so hard down within the last 12 Month......... 12 month ago.. you got up to 10L$ per /sqm only Downpayment.. and now ?..... the same will be with the OS Market... so its better to close the doors and make clear, that the FP Sims are the only way to go
[5:30] Careltje Phoenix: true rush but only because SL is becomming a statement for *making money* we never started SL for that purpose .. we are being sucked with it .. or need to get out
[5:31] JohnnyD Posthorn: agrees with Margot >> limit the scriptload and avatars per sim (to fix your back end load) and keep the current prims/tier - otherwise people will simply abandon their OS sims
[5:31] Kristina Simon: Alexanda they have a monopol. they can restrict us to use our sims only on x-mas if they want
[5:31] Omicron HUD 1.4: Innula Zenovka : 5 m W 0
[5:31] Elvis Orbit: blog aganet limit
[5:31] Elvis Orbit: agent
[5:31] Coal Edge: if it was made to be sure that the OS could never go OVER what it would get if it were literally a 4th of a single sim, then abusers wouldnt have the same chance to abuse
[5:31] Jack Linden: Coal: we had not expected the demand or load increase; it would have been hard to predict
[5:31] Kayleigh McMillan: not sure this increase of tier is the answer for both linden as it's residents it is too unstabile
[5:31] Omicron HUD 1.4: Tombstone Benelli : 5 m 0
[5:31] Elvis Orbit: dotn allow soemoen to set it to 100 agents
[5:31] Omicron HUD 1.4: Pablo Sienkiewicz : 6 m 0
[5:31] Master Quatro: in turning around 3 real life ailing companies .. the only way to make money I found was through "extreme customer care" it's the only way .. there is no other way to survive in business
[5:32] Stephen Psaltery: Yes jack not only do I think we need some sort of concession on this issue. We need confidence in our land market again. This is the rollcoaster ride from hell. =\
[5:32] RachelLynn Lane: Oh again Jack ... that's just crap
[5:32] Virtouse Lilienthal: Well Jack but the price increase is a slap in the face afterwards
[5:32] Coal Edge: I can understand that, but how doable is it to now protect it now you know the problem, and why was that not thought of before the idea of raising the price without actually ADDING or changing what we have now?
[5:32] Careltje Phoenix: i thought that was the goal jack ? to iincrease .. we only use the resorsees yuo gave us
[5:32] Master Quatro: customers will either drive your business or they will leave it
[5:32] JohnnyD Posthorn: 10 agents max would even be reasonable for an OS sim
[5:32] Virtouse Lilienthal: and it hardly can be legal
[5:32] Pippen Sonnenblume: There are owners who are permitting EM privileges on OS sims to residents who know NOTHING about how to run a sim
[5:32] Simone Stern: How did you not expect what it would be when you set the limits?
[5:32] Simone Stern: You meaning LL
[5:32] River Ely: You gave me openspaces, whether i like em or not, I have customers worried about losing their investment in time and money, do I tell them its a Linden Think, they want ever more money, so pay up or leave, oh by the way, you can get cheap mainland if you want a place for your club!
[5:32] Equinox Pinion: and you have yourself an OS "Mos Ainsley" which you use heave too jack
[5:32] perfumed Odets: ya pippen
[5:32] Master Quatro: what part of your announcement shows any customer focus .. meeting customer needs ?
[5:33] Equinox Pinion: my OS are use less heavy that this OS from linden
[5:33] Omicron HUD 1.4: Wagahai Oddfellow : 1 m SW 0
[5:33] SexyAnn Ashley: Solve this Problem

1) Offer Free Converssion to Full Sims from 4 Open Sims

2) Offer a refund for those that have 3 or less

3) Offer Open sims with less fuctionality for same Cost

4) Offer Open Sims With better fuctionality at New Cost so they are worth the New cost

5) take them off the Market completely ( Open Sims )
[5:33] Master Quatro: it's all monopolistic arrogance
[5:33] RachelLynn Lane: Sorry Jack ... it's pretty obvious you're just Bait
[5:33] tom007 Flow: all i have heard is what lindens lab will gain in , where dose the people od sl fit in this , where is our gain , in all this
[5:33] Yukiko Omegamu: we all gotten screwed over by abusers ruining our sims yet whena solution is given its the wrong one
[5:33] RachelLynn Lane: I'm sticking to the FREEZE Policy
[5:33] River Ely: Why Jack, do you think people want openspaces, Let me share, so they dont have the horrors of the low priced mainland. Think about it. your taking that away and replacing it with more costs.
[5:33] RachelLynn Lane: and ya'll can just play with the bait
[5:33] Omicron HUD 1.4: Krell Shinohara : 6 m SW 0
[5:34] Tironko Trevellion: It's nice that you listen now but many people allready decided to leave sl. Is there any chance that this new "policy"is going to change ?
[5:34] Omicron HUD 1.4: Tombstone Benelli : 5 m 0
[5:34] Omicron HUD 1.4: DigitalJack Blackhawk : 6 m SW 0
[5:34] Coal Edge: I will admit, in the blog post all I saw was "you abused our server, so we are going to leave it the same and just charge you more for it"
[5:34] Simone Stern: How was it NOT EXPECTED people would build and scriopt to LL's preset limits?
[5:34] Rush Gastel: SIMPLE I JUST FEEL CHEATED
[5:34] Kayleigh McMillan: what i don't understand is how can teh price of an OS ever be attractive copair to a full sim?
[5:34] Diamond Meness: just curious...how many of 'think tank' meets have LL and estate owners had BEFORE huge changes like this are made?
[5:34] Stephen Psaltery: We want to start to hear about what Linden labs is going to do I think Jack. Thus far you've taken a passive stance that gives me no confidence that LL will do ANYTHING. I appreciate the words, but when will we hear some promises?
[5:34] Omicron HUD 1.4: Firelight Simca : 6 m E 0
[5:35] Margot LaSalle: Jack, what you are actually saying now is "Pay more for the same servers with the same overload but now our support team will run around more fixing problems". We are asking of you to PREVENT these problems by setting LIMITS
[5:35] River Ely: We asked repeatedly for support on OS sims, you gacve us none, you NEVER warned us that we were abusing your servers, why not jack, why not? was it because until last week you didnt know? was it?
[5:35] Coal Edge: I think myself, I would rather LL try to find out how to fix the problem first, before saying "we need more money"
[5:35] Diamond Meness: is there a .....group of some sort....where lindenlabs and about 10 or so estate owners have monthly meets?
[5:35] Kayleigh McMillan: unless you make an open space just as good in performence as a full sim but then half prim
[5:35] Diamond Meness: if there isnt...i would love to have onein place
[5:35] SexyAnn Ashley: Comment anyone on this

Solve this Problem

1) Offer Free Converssion to Full Sims from 4 Open Sims

2) Offer a refund for those that have 3 or less

3) Offer Open sims with less fuctionality for same Cost

4) Offer Open Sims With better fuctionality at New Cost so they are worth the New cost

5) take them off the Market completely ( Open Sims )
[5:35] Simone Stern: Right Margot
[5:35] Stephen Psaltery: Start conservatively. Most of us don't expect unconditional refunds. We need something, though. Sexyanne offers some good solutions.
[5:35] Kayleigh McMillan: half prim half price
[5:35] Margot LaSalle: SexyAnn, please don't do this
[5:35] Coal Edge: and I also admit I never saw one blog post saying it was out of hand, or that LL was suffering at the over usage of the open spaces
[5:35] Omicron HUD 1.4: RayAnderson Beaumont : 6 m 0
[5:35] perfumed Odets: i like those ideas..sexyanne
[5:36] Simone Stern: NOT ONE, Coal.mistaken
[5:36] RayAnderson Beaumont: hello everyone :-)
[5:36] Coal Edge: All I saw was "you messed up, we need more money"
[5:36] Elvis Orbit: Today is my 2nd year rezz day so far I have stood quiet and been optimistic but I am gettign worried at thefuture from this in sudden prices increases just not in OS sims but in full regions as well Suddenly
[5:36] Kayleigh McMillan: hi Ray
[5:36] Ethan Linden: Hello Ray
[5:36] Careltje Phoenix: hi ethan :)
[5:36] Equinox Pinion: We are all very upset Jack...and prolly say thinks we wouldnt say if we wouldnt be upset..can you not go back and discuss the agent limitation with your team and postpone that price increase till you find out if it is possible??
[5:36] Femina Matahari: well I have a sim on another openlife grid company and although it is way behind sl it is growing and strangely they care about their sim owners
[5:36] Simone Stern: WE didnt mess up. WE stayed within LL's PRESET limits.
[5:36] perfumed Odets: hi ray, hi ethan
[5:36] SexyAnn Ashley: don't do what?
[5:36] Alexandra Fallon: We're mind readers, Coal.. didn' t you get the memo? Oh yeah, that's right. There wasn't one.
[5:37] Diamond Meness: thats workable SexyAnn
[5:37] King Pascale: i cant believe that $1200 arent enough to maintance ONE server....... and with the Purchase Price... we paid for the Hardware,too ........
[5:37] Diamond Meness: that way its something for everyoine affect
[5:37] Coal Edge: Alexandra, that is the pure problem here, most everyone feels that we were not included in the solution until AFTER we were chastized forthe problem
[5:37] Jack Linden: okay, so lets summarise a little: I hear you on OS limits, and I hear you on the other options like free conversions. I won't obviously be making any promises in this discussion which is an ad-hoc one because I wanted to get as much feedback as I could.. but I will take all of this away and discuss it within the Lab. *if* there are outcomes or changes, then we should make those clear sooner rather than later
[5:37] Jack Linden: I completely take on board how significant this is to many of you.
[5:37] Diamond Meness: like....2 days sooner or like...Jan 1 later?
[5:37] Yukiko Omegamu: 6) Tell us whos owners of the sims which are being abused so we can fix it ourselfs 7) communicate with us on a month basis we arent mind readers we need to work as a team to get this stuff done you want our business we want trust and transparnacy on doing it with you guys.
[5:37] Pippen Sonnenblume: SexyAnn... you made some valid points... I'd like to see some dialogue from LL on that
[5:37] Equinox Pinion: geeez...i dont want free convertion!! i want to keep my nice estate!
[5:37] River Ely: What happens to trust jack?
[5:38] Elvis Orbit: please soon as well have out own customers to deal with with as well because fo this
[5:38] Simone Stern: ASAP please so we can tend to our people who are throwing even bigger fits in our faces (if that's possible =p)
[5:38] Coal Edge: Equinox, a lot of us want to keep it
[5:38] Stephen Psaltery: Thank you, Jack.
[5:38] Pablo Sienkiewicz: can we let the man talk?
[5:38] Femina Matahari: the only changes will be you applying it in december rather thatn january
[5:38] RayAnderson Beaumont: it makes now sense that on one wqay LL allow to place open space sims separatelly to tell us now they can't get used
[5:38] [1] eyeing Daligdig: ao on
[5:38] Equinox Pinion: so free convertion is not the solution for us
[5:38] Rene Erlanger: i mema really......there is far too much land anyway in LL.......its swamped. Look how much yellow is on that World map. There is no concept of supply and demand being used
[5:38] Coal Edge: and yes, we, me and a few others I see, want limits
[5:38] Clubside Granville: Thanks for the discussion, Jack.
[5:38] Kayleigh McMillan: and my suggestion is half a sim 7500 prims full performance and for example ¼ sim 37500 prims
[5:38] Stephen Psaltery: Yes I second that. Please ASAP on the information Jack. We need to move quickly or we'll lose TONS of money, so we need all the facts as soon as possible.
[5:38] Rush Gastel: nice hat ethan linden very apt being a pirate hat
[5:38] Coal Edge: something that makes it more secure, to know our sim is not using MORE than it should
[5:38] Diamond Meness: i dont want to reasure my tenants that everything is fine....lol...and then blame it's not again
[5:38] Omicron HUD 1.4: Equinox Pinion : 3 m SW 0
[5:38] River Ely: jack, please place a rescind on the blog, my customers are reading it. and will only have my word for it that you may reconsider
[5:38] Rene Erlanger: what is it now 2.5 logins to a single SIM.....thats absurd
[5:38] Diamond Meness: they will no longer have my trust
[5:39] Diamond Meness: and that'si important to me
[5:39] Master Quatro: please convey to the Linden team that this is not a technical issue anymore Jack .. it's truly become a trust issue .. we have lost trust in the ability of LL to treat it's customers fairly .. and equitably
[5:39] Kayleigh McMillan: just as a full sim only alowed to buy by island owners
[5:39] perfumed Odets: some would want the free conversion options too, equi
[5:39] Jack Linden: Can I just thank you all for coming and talking with me. For the most part this was constructive and calm, which I know is difficult. I bet a few of you were biting our tongues a little and I appreciate that.
[5:39] Diamond Meness: new month si coming up
[5:39] Elvis Orbit: Thansk JAck
[5:39] Careltje Phoenix: i agree with the trust remarks , very much
[5:39] Master Quatro: you must restore that trust .. if those of us who have suppoerted you (over 3 years here) all this time
[5:39] Talin Sands: Jack reply fast PPL are quitting sims already
[5:39] Simone Stern gave it the college try =p
[5:39] Coal Edge: Hey, freedom of speech is a privledge not a right :p
[5:39] DigitalJack Blackhawk: and 2 months is not enough notice to realisticly adjust business
[5:39] Diamond Meness: please keep in mind that losts of us have rent due in a few days
[5:39] JohnnyD Posthorn: yes please update the blog - I have 2 people IM already wanting to abandon their OS sims
[5:39] Coal Edge: thanks for hearing us out
[5:39] Kristina Simon: i am not willing to buy ANY lindenlab land any more. my trust is totally gone
[5:39] Jack Linden: Lets keep talking. I will reply more in the forums, and I will try to do more sessions like this over the next few days
[5:39] Stephen Psaltery: Thanks for understanding the effort it took jack. Heh
[5:39] SexyAnn Ashley: Jack I would like to talk to you further on this
[5:40] Master Quatro: are to believe that this is truly "our world" "our imagination"
[5:40] Femina Matahari: butter us up Jack it means nothing though
[5:40] Coal Edge: and ok what I said didnt come out as I ment it, but you get the idea
[5:40] Pablo Sienkiewicz: was grandfather mention?
[5:40] Babe Daligdig: why advertise open spaces to be the next best thing to slice cheese ..offer 3750 prim useage if the servers cant handle it ... what was it jack .. pull us all in so deep then slam us with a tier raise that we all cant escape .... we bought the open spaces under terms ..250 usd land cost 75 tier ... how do you justify 66% increase when we work so hard to even make anything on them now ?
[5:40] perfumed Odets: no pablo
[5:40] Diamond Meness: Honestly Jack..this is something that always need to be done
[5:40] River Ely: Announce on the blog the price changes are not in force until after discussions or this is a waste of time as i have residents that are talking about leaving
[5:40] Jack Linden: Femina. I don't butter. I'm very eager to work with everyone and to make this a discussion
[5:40] Coal Edge: well, Pablo, for one I would rather see it be fixed without raising the price first
[5:40] Master Quatro: right now it's Linden's world and Linden's lack of any imagination in solving problems
[5:40] Diamond Meness: I propose a monthly pow wow...with LL and estate owners
[5:41] Pablo Sienkiewicz: jack can you look into that, please?
[5:41] Elvis Orbit: I agree Diamond in diff time zones as well
[5:41] Coal Edge: Lets see what Jack comes up with on fixing it first
[5:41] Coal Edge: so we dont HAVE to pay more
[5:41] Elvis Orbit: Thanks jack
[5:41] Femina Matahari: yeah sure Jack fogive me if I dont believe you
[5:41] Stephen Psaltery: Pablo, they said granfathered openspaces would be upgraded to the increased price as well.
[5:41] Rush Gastel: I JUST FEEL CHEATED
[5:41] Desari Deledda: Already I have begun to figure out ways of minimizing this situtation, with ideas of perhaps converting....but I'll be taking on a lot of responsibility in tier doing that.....I would really like to see us get a break in that conversion. We can't afford to do it and pay 850 usd too.
[5:41] Omicron HUD 1.4: King Pascale : 11 m SE 0
[5:41] Krell Shinohara: Agreed River take aback the announcement and say its under discussion
[5:41] River Ely: Announce on the blog the price changes are not in force until after discussions or this is a waste of time as i have residents that are talking about leaving
[5:41] Virtouse Lilienthal: Diamond Meness there's a weekly meeting already for land related questions
[5:41] Virtouse Lilienthal: Diamond Meness thursdays
[5:41] River Ely: this is madness
[5:41] Femina Matahari: you are cheated Rush it what Linden labs are good at
[5:42] Pippen Sonnenblume: Jack... River has a point...
[5:42] Pablo Sienkiewicz: Stephen i meant the possibilitie of having grandfather voids as they have full prim islands
[5:42] Virtouse Lilienthal: I think
[5:42] Femina Matahari: the only thing they are good at
[5:42] Virtouse Lilienthal: lol I can't remember
[5:42] River Ely: you hold a gun to our heads and say you will think about it?
[5:42] Pippen Sonnenblume: this is starting a mass exodus
[5:42] Krell Shinohara: river has a good point
[5:42] Diamond Meness: i'm talking on a deeper level
[5:42] Diamond Meness: Meetings that would avoid issues like this
[5:42] Pablo Sienkiewicz: I mean, in Spain is just not legal to change the rules of a contract once the transaction has been made, is it in the States?
[5:42] Equinox Pinion: i think it would be good if you post on the blog that you are considering other options...as you scared many people
[5:42] perfumed Odets: i think giving ppl options and choices between paying more or converting OS back to regular sim for free and..giving LL time to come up with solutions to fix the tech issues regarding OS performances sound good
[5:42] Babe Daligdig: you bring in open spaces ..empty our full prim lands .. force us to go with the ** new trend ** .... now your gonna empty our open spaces ?
[5:42] Virtouse Lilienthal: Pablo it's not only in spain like that
[5:43] RayAnderson Beaumont: with this new tier prices the most of the landowners will loose their land
[5:43] Stephen Psaltery: Yes jack can we have a suspension on the date while you guys discuss this? I'd hate to wait for the outcome of the discussion only to find a few weeks before january nothing changes and I've lost all that time.
[5:43] Andy Grant: i believe the fundamental question is who screwed up ? LL underpriced the sims, but asking customers to fund writeoff costs is just beyond ridiculous.... my opinion offer existing customers 12months without increasing tier
[5:43] Diamond Meness: i now have prepare myself for my tenants
[5:43] Omicron HUD 1.4: Rush Gastel : 2 m SW 0
[5:43] Desari Deledda: This isn't a democracy we live in Pablo
[5:43] Diamond Meness: dont know what to tell them yet
[5:43] Equinox Pinion: Andy...it doesnt matter who screwed it up...we need to solve it!!
[5:43] Pablo Sienkiewicz: ok jack is gone...
[5:43] Diamond Meness: as the outcome will decided weather they will stay or leave
[5:43] Coal Edge: I would rather not have to pay more, if the limits work it may not even be possible
[5:43] Diamond Meness: so i need answers fast
[5:43] Coal Edge: well, we wont get an answer fast I dont think
[5:44] Innula Zenovka seconds Stephen's point.. I'm worried, too, that we face some weeks of uncertainty followed by a mad scramble, just before Christmas, to deal with whatever's finally decided
[5:44] River Ely: JACK, make a note on the blog to rescind the statement this morning, we are going to lose custoemrs and in some cases will fold
[5:44] Pippen Sonnenblume: Hmmm... the Lindens have left the building
[5:44] Omicron HUD 1.4: lilly Margetts : 6 m NE 0
[5:44] Omicron HUD 1.4: Totem Flow : 6 m SW 0
[5:44] Rush Gastel: only increase future sim and dont allow grand fathering i would be happywith that
[5:44] SexyAnn Ashley: Can I say something everyone please
[5:44] Diamond Meness: lol
[5:44] Diamond Meness: yeah they gone
[5:44] SexyAnn Ashley: and people listen a moment
[5:44] Krell Shinohara: I believe this is a screw up but we can either Witch Hunt (appropriate with halloween) or we can resolve the problem, I know what I would rather do.
[5:44] perfumed Odets: yea innula
[5:44] Coal Edge: Krell, me also
[5:44] Omicron HUD 1.4: Maddison Dagostino : 6 m E 0
[5:44] Pablo Sienkiewicz: Coal i went from mainland to estates casue of VAT, we will always have to pay more, i will just like some alternatives...
[5:44] Andy Grant: equinox: i just offered a solution 12months of no change in tier everybody happy
[5:44] Krell Shinohara: Same happend to me Pablo
[5:45] Rene Erlanger: unfortunately....i doubt it will change anything. he might offer you a little bone of a free conversion fee, but thats about it
[5:45] Coal Edge: well, would you rather be forced to pay EVEN more, or make it work for the current price
[5:45] Tironko Trevellion: Is this an overused openspace sim ?
[5:45] Femina Matahari: last time I say it if you want to be fair Increase land tier on mainland so it is like in 2006 when it was all the same so we are all on a level playing field. Your even stealing our covenant way that gave us our one adavantage
[5:45] Pablo Sienkiewicz: yeah andy like they care....
[5:45] Omicron HUD 1.4: Krazi Babii : 28 m W + 11
[5:45] Tironko Trevellion: ^^
[5:45] SexyAnn Ashley: We have 2 months to act on this if it was Imediate then there is no time to change I think that they will change this issue so give it time to come into effect
[5:45] Diamond Meness: i would perfer make it work for the current price
[5:45] Master Quatro: unfortunately not many of us trust LL anymore .. it's hard to believe anything they say
[5:45] Equinox Pinion: well...that is not the long term solution...if they really have problems with the load
[5:45] King Pascale: and we must start now....
[5:45] Coal Edge: thats my point, lets find a current solution
[5:45] Krell Shinohara: Jack this to me sounds like a time for LL to earn some trust from its residents.
[5:45] Femina Matahari: yeah leave sl thats the only way
[5:45] Andy Grant: equinox: soluton 2 fire the idio who underpriced OS'es
[5:46] Omicron HUD 1.4: SexyAnn Ashley : 8 m SE 0
[5:46] Babe Daligdig: is linden labs that stupid to see this coming .. offering 3750 prims for light use?
[5:46] River Ely: they shafted us again folks, pas me some more lube!
[5:46] Andy Grant: idiot*
[5:46] Diamond Meness: and i'm ashamed at all u men....sitting and letting us women stand
[5:46] Coal Edge: Jack is gone :\

(I had to remove the private IM's from teh log, sorry for the delay)

River Ely