Dear Mr Linden.
I enjoyed being able to rent out sims to your customers. I bought islands, they made communities. I and my friends were proud of your customers and felt good about the fair offer we made. We offered a nice place to live, with enough rules to keep it safe and simple. People loved it. I grew the business to a dozen islands. Then this year, our customer started to leave, in ones and twos and then more. They were going to open sims. You were selling them so cheap and with the uneven playing field, USA sellers were selling at 10% profit, far less than the tax of 17.5% I had to pay. I could not compete.
As my islands emptied I sold some at a loss to other players or gave them away or even had them switched off. You were getting over 4000 USD a month from me, solid payments and I was just a small fry. I, and others like me, more than paid our way.
Permit me, but your biggest mistake was failing to come to the land owners that had been earning you the money first and explaining that you were having an issue with loading of the Open Space sims. I feel terribly confident, the skills gained by others like myself, would have been able to create sound and simple objectives to enable you to redefine the way sims are used and charged for, and we could have done it without the massive disruption your announcement has created.
It is too late now of course, as the gaffe is blowing up now badly, but then my island holding has dwindled to one full sim and four voids. You have hurt me a great deal. You have hurt many of my friends and competitive enemies alike. We have lost faith in your ability to manage the second life experience to any positive degree Jack. I am hoping I get to sell what few sims I have left so that I can gracefully face a reduced holding without losing too much money. Jack, you didn’t communicate with your customers. Something we have been asking for since day one.
Yours
River Ely
CEO Rivers-Islands.Com
VAT Registered
Thursday 30 October 2008
Tuesday 28 October 2008
Linden labs increase the cost of ownership and destroy a fragile economy.
I learned today...
the Lindens posted this:
I went to a town hall meetimng, here is the content:
[4:51] SexyAnn Ashley: If Linden Labs does not want the Open Spaces on the Gride by Estate Owners in how they are Used Jack then refund them ------ Offer those with 4 or more to make them all Full Sims for Free and refund the People with 3 or less and Credit thier account thier value of $250 USD
[4:51] Omicron HUD 1.4: Kaio Obviate : 12 m SE 0
[4:51] Coal Edge: In a way it does seem we are paying for LL making the mistake of thinking 4 open spaces could run on one core
[4:52] Careltje Phoenix: performance have never been optimal ever .. will this mean you have more money to spend on better perfomance ?
[4:52] Jack Linden: Stephen: I totally understand the frustration. And we'll be reading every piece of feedback we get and considering every option available, as we always do.
[4:52] Master Quatro: we are definitely paying the price for bad mistakes .. misjudgements and overall incompetence ..
[4:52] Simone Stern: Why were prim limits set and then not expected to be used accordingly?
[4:52] shazzray Streeter gave you Changes in tiers - IMPORTANT.
[4:52] SexyAnn Ashley: Refund the ones of 3 or less and force all others to be full sims and just take them off the market
[4:52] Rene Erlanger: yes refund everyone,,,,and we'll in turn past the refunds to all the residents
[4:52] Jenniferbugg Blackflag: You can't sit there as Lindens and tell me verbally on the phone "Hey you know since you own a full region that you can buy an openspace sim for 250.00 and 75.00 a month in tiers" trying to talk me into it as many Lindens have and now expect me to pay more money in January out of all times after Christmas when everyone needs their money the most, This is nuts and a nightmare! This is not real life but second life, who wants to pay all that money for a 3D chat program that's not in fact real? Not me...Not anymore!
[4:53] RachelLynn Lane: Because the didn't test Havok4 correctly on the open sims
[4:53] Stephen Psaltery: It is is completely within your right to raise prices when you want, Jack, but Linden Lab holds some responsibility here. This is EXACTLY like the telehub fiasco. I think we need to see some compensation now just like then. I think the fee to conert opensims back to regular sims should be FREE for current opensim owners only. Let us get out of this with our skins intact.
[4:53] Totem Flow: how can you be considering every option, when you have already announced your plans???
[4:53] Rene Erlanger: no one would have bought open space sims back in April other than personal use.......if you told them to expect a 67% increase by Jan 08
[4:53] Coal Edge: It isnt that the software there isnt doing the right job, apparantly if we are to understand this correctly, its the people OVER USING the new system
[4:53] Coal Edge: that is making it "break down"
[4:53] RachelLynn Lane: They didn't have correct ideas about how many prims os could support on havok 4
[4:53] Diamond Meness: Linden labs definately needs to think this one over again
[4:53] Jack Linden: Muli: no we are not. we're a privately owned company
[4:54] Laurynna Bailey: Ok Jack, so you now how most of us are feeling.......what other solution can you offer us so that it's a fair compromise??
[4:54] Master Quatro: this land thing has been so mismanaged .. I've run 3 real life companies all bigger then LL .. and you all would have been fired for the gross negligence and mismanagement
[4:54] Clubside Granville: It's not just prims Simone, while they were raised in anticipation of performance increases from Havok 4 and MONO, scripts, assets (in particular textures) and other needs have contributed to problems not only on the OpenSpaces themselves but the Grid in general, if I understand Jack's answer to me earlier.
[4:54] Kayleigh McMillan: isn't their an other sulation such as making open spaces available indeed for 75 us but with other ristrictions?
[4:54] Careltje Phoenix: lol master
[4:54] Rene Erlanger: Do you have an Economist on board at LL?
[4:54] Simone Stern: I agree. We didnt 'blatantly misuse and abuse' LL policy as set. We ADHERED to it, and now we're about to be punished for it. Conversion back to FULL SIM should be free.
[4:54] Kaio Obviate: Jack, this is disastrous decision. You really need to think about it more seriously
[4:54] Master Quatro: this is la la land .. not a business
[4:54] Coal Edge: This is a small voice of the true people affected, we are being told "pay more for what you are using, and by the way, use LESS of it too"
[4:54] Master Quatro: with customer care .. client concern
[4:54] Kristina Simon: hi everyone
[4:55] Kayleigh McMillan: hi kristina:-)
[4:55] Master Quatro: MBA University of Illinois
[4:55] Jack Linden: yes, that is why I'm here - to talk to as many people as possible and get your feedback.
[4:55] Clubside Granville: Howdy
[4:55] Kristaki Hudson: Jack why u dont u plan to keep actuall all open spaces sim son secondlife at hte actual pries and new sims pruchased then at u new price politic so all ppl which invested so much money in sl not to sink.... even our land are rented i mean think of all of us which trusted in u new land sotre whic is vey good and the prices u did on new land stored
[4:55] Diamond Meness: Over all feedback....this is NOT acceptable
[4:55] Diamond Meness: lol
[4:55] RachelLynn Lane: It's in the forums ... you have enough info already
[4:55] SexyAnn Ashley: If you want the Open Sim Problem stopped
1) tell everyone to convert to full sims that have 4 or more
2) Refund any that are less then 4 left over
3) Problem solved without a Economical Problem and Pissing off the people that spend the most money in Second Life
[4:55] Laurynna Bailey: You HAVE our FEEDBACK.........but what WILL you now CHANGE to make this workable and fair????
[4:55] Careltje Phoenix: will our feedback change the plans allready made Jack ?
[4:55] Omicron HUD 1.4: Kayleigh McMillan : 10 m SE 0
[4:55] RachelLynn Lane: we are thru talking ... we want to HEAR YOU
[4:55] JohnnyD Posthorn: I have 2 of my buddies in IM right who I bought 4 Openspace sims on their behalf - they are abandoning the lot. They are (quite rightly) furious as they have been ripped off
[4:55] RachelLynn Lane: JACK
[4:55] Dimentox Travanti: I am just kinda sad ill loose my Development land for DCS .... LOL not really pissedor mad.. It was a loss leader and always will be
[4:56] Simone Stern: Conversion back to Full sims should be without charge.
[4:56] Firelight Simca: You have a rough job, Jack.
[4:56] Coal Edge: First of all, telling us we are abusing what we paid for is sort of harsh, the blog to me did not accept responsibility for the back end issues, it put the blame on US for using what was SOLD to us
[4:56] River Ely: hate to say it, but I support the idea of returning the openspace sims to their orioginal design, four at a time, one attached to a full sim, low prim count, very low prim count. then maybe we island owners can sell land again, cos for now we are struggling
[4:56] Kristina Simon: i have just split 5 fullsims into open sims. thanks to this policy i am ruined
[4:56] Stephen Psaltery: Jack, please be honest.. does our feedback mean anything? Or is this just a move to calm the riot and continue?
[4:56] Fahra Fawcett is Offline
[4:56] Jack Linden: SexyAnn.. free conversions to normal regions is an option. We'll give that some thought if it would help
[4:56] Careltje Phoenix: JACK does this feedback change any of the plans allready been made ?
[4:56] RachelLynn Lane: Come on Jack talk it up
[4:56] Stephen Psaltery: Jack, yes. Free conversions is what we want.
[4:56] RachelLynn Lane: tell us something
[4:56] Diamond Meness: Why are decisions like this constanly mad without even asking for our opion before LL makes up it mind
[4:57] Coal Edge: Jack, if we are to pay more, how likely is it that we can reduce the amount of open spaces on one core by half,
[4:57] Elvis Orbit: Reduction in Regular SIm fees woudl be nice as well ....
[4:57] Stephen Psaltery: It's the LEAST we can do.
[4:57] Coal Edge: atleast make it worth it, since you DID increase your income to make up for it
[4:57] Diamond Meness: As we are the affected parties
[4:57] Master Quatro: half my clients are leaving they will not pay the increase .. so what do i do with the OS sims .. yes it was my decision to buy them and my risk .. but I had to trust that LL is an ethical business that cares about its clients and not put them out of business
[4:57] Firelight Simca: Yes, free conversions to normal sims would help.
[4:57] SexyAnn Ashley: Free conversions would calm alot of these issues Jack
[4:57] Careltje Phoenix: jack please awnser . will this feedback change any of the plans allready been made ?
[4:57] Yukiko Omegamu: to be blunt theres 3 of the bigestest estates in sl are effected and many others that have alot are also some are too busy to come and this situation is forceing them to reconsidering abandoning them dropping over 1400+ sims altogethor
[4:57] SexyAnn Ashley: and a credit to accounts to those who want them would too
[4:57] Spike Linden: Guys, there are multiple questions being answered and Jack only have two hands.. please give him a chance to respond. [4:57]
[4:57] Omicron HUD 1.4: Xandi Mars : 5 m NE + 1
[4:57] Omicron HUD 1.4: lilly Margetts : 6 m NE 0
[4:57] Jack Linden: Careltje; feedback is essential, of course. the problems are clear. if it makes sense for us to change tack, as with any area of policy, we would review it.
[4:57] Coal Edge: and conversions do not help those of us who bought them for actual personal uses, I own 2, so that does not help me
[4:57] Omicron HUD 1.4: Arvik Gustafson : 3 m W 0
[4:57] Femina Matahari is Online
[4:58] Simone Stern: Conversion back to Full sims should be without charge.
[4:58] Rene Erlanger: Trust has been dead along time ago......this is just another nail in the coffin.......for some it will be the one that takes them over the edge
[4:58] Careltje Phoenix: ty jack
[4:58] RachelLynn Lane: Ditto me on Rene
[4:58] Pippen Sonnenblume: Jack... you are TELLING us nothing right now...
[4:58] Clubside Granville: Jack, maybe if we better understood how the internet pipes were tied to regions... do four OpenSpaces also share a single pipe like they do a CPU/Core? Is their bandwidth pressure as more of these are actively in use? Are bottlenecks forming as more distinct regions are actively used (as in occupied by any number of avatars greater than zero)?
[4:58] Jack Linden: Coal: interesting question. I'd have to look into that
[4:58] Xandi Mars: oh you just rezzed
[4:58] Omicron HUD 1.4: Innula Zenovka : 5 m W 0
[4:58] Equinox Pinion: free conversion is nothing..what about all the people who build up their homes on OS..they will loose everything
[4:58] [9] Femina Matahari: sling
[4:58] Xandi Mars: sorry for the butt action
[4:58] Omicron HUD 1.4: Femina Matahari : 2 m SE 0
[4:59] Dimentox Travanti: yeah conversion would kill me.. LOL i have no plans to move my personal dev place to a full island its not feasable
[4:59] Jack Linden: Clubside.. yes. the 4 openspaces on a CPU share not just the cpu, but also the Memory for all 16 on that server, and the bandwidth for all 16 too
[4:59] Equinox Pinion: i have 100 OS sims...and i know...only 2 of them have heavy traffic
[4:59] Jack Linden: a very loaded openspace can and does impact all 16 on that server if it's bad enough
[4:59] Master Quatro: you guys just don't get it .. CUSTOMERS count .. they pay your bills .. your salaries .. you are putting us out of business
[4:59] SexyAnn Ashley: 1) Free Conversion
2) Credit people thier acount to abandon the Open sims to thier next month tiers on thier Full sims
3) then you have 90% of the Open sims off the Market
[4:59] Diamond Meness: Conversion would not be helpful for me either
[4:59] Equinox Pinion: you are just not telling the true about the usage on them
[4:59] Coal Edge: I agree that 4 per core, and eating the other resources can be a big tax, I do think something fair would be to give us more for what we pay for, not in prims but
[4:59] Coal Edge: reliability
[5:00] Clubside Granville: That explains a lot as local rendering gets such a narrow pipe causing slower calls to the distributed asset and presence services...
[5:00] Equinox Pinion: i doubt there are 5% who abuse the usage
[5:00] Femina Matahari: so you increase the tier fee and the europeans also pay more VAT and the gap widens
[5:00] Coal Edge: reducing the load in half would help hardware wise
[5:00] Equinox Pinion: and you blame us all for it!
[5:00] Totem Flow: Target the abusers, send warnings.. emails anything... god its not difficult
[5:00] Careltje Phoenix: agrees with femina
[5:00] Rush Gastel: getting bent over a barrel and shafted sounds right to me
[5:00] Diamond Meness: I agree Totem
[5:00] Dimentox Travanti: LOL how about making the OS sims use the cpu of their main FUll island jack?
[5:00] Femina Matahari: I sold or closed 6 sims already in the last 2 months
[5:00] Diamond Meness: Targe the abuser
[5:00] Krell Shinohara: cap performance on OS sims do not take more money
[5:00] RachelLynn Lane: agrees with femina, coal, equinox, totme
[5:00] Diamond Meness: get them
[5:00] Equinox Pinion: you should inscrease the tier for OS which are used heavy...not for homes!!
[5:01] SexyAnn Ashley: then you are working with the heart of the SL community not just pissing everyone off during a resession and during the Holidays
[5:01] Kristina Simon: me too femina.
[5:01] Equinox Pinion: or sailing areas
[5:01] Master Quatro: these 2 issues are being linked together .. they are not .. they are separate .. one is technical the other is gouging
[5:01] Femina Matahari: I will close the rest if there is no drop in tier fee
[5:01] Elvis Orbit: They sound not be able to run any more than they can, allowign to do them to do so is a mistake
[5:01] Jenniferbugg Blackflag: This is quite a shock to me that my hands are even shaking in real life, it's a shame that you people have to upset people so badly it effects your real life, all I know is if I'm billed come January for more money, I'll be contacting an attorney regarding this matter, As I said you as Lindens cannot verbally tell me something on the phone and tell me I can get an openspace for 250.00 an only pay 75.00 a month and I wind up buying 2 and what I pay now in tiers is bad enough, I haven't even had my openspaces for a whole year yet and you do this!
[5:01] perfumed Odets: free conversion back to Full prim regular sim would help, Jack...in some way
[5:01] Kristina Simon: and for the same reason
[5:01] Jack Linden: okay so here is a question; do you think us pinning prim counts down to say 1500, and limiting script count to 250, would be acceptable if the price stayed as it now? I'm not suggesting this is possible, but I'm interested in your opinions
[5:01] Alexandra Fallon: The underestimation on LL's part that people might actually push it, use ALL of what they can is what is punishing us now. So, because LL underestimated a human's ability, we pay?!
[5:01] Kristina Simon: NO
[5:01] RachelLynn Lane: PFF JACK
[5:01] Dimentox Travanti: The script count is a bit low... The prim count i could care less about
[5:01] Kristina Simon: NP
[5:02] Omicron HUD 1.4: Rush Gastel : 2 m SW 0
[5:02] Rush Gastel: how about a rfund on purchase price
[5:02] Careltje Phoenix: I think that will help jack .. reduce so ppl cant abuse anymore
[5:02] RachelLynn Lane: YES MULI
[5:02] Femina Matahari: NO
[5:02] RachelLynn Lane: THEY TESTED WRONGLY AND NOW WE PAY
[5:02] Femina Matahari: it wouldnt
[5:02] Coal Edge: Jack, that IS a start, but thats lower prim wise than we originally received for the 50 if I am not mistaken
[5:02] Krell Shinohara: i would think with a higher prim count and limited scripts it would be an option
[5:02] Coal Edge: 50 tier I ment
[5:02] Krell Shinohara: higher than 1500 i mean
[5:02] Clubside Granville: It certainly would solve the problem faced by the sailing community raised by MarkTwain, Jack...
[5:02] Kristina Simon: why don't you limit the avatars to 10 ! this would be acceptable
[5:02] Equinox Pinion: or clients limit on them
[5:02] Kaio Obviate: no hostage business raise prices when they cant support their own services
[5:02] Master Quatro: we pay for your incompetence
[5:02] Omicron HUD 1.4: Krell Shinohara : 6 m SW 0
[5:02] Dimentox Travanti: for 1500 prim and 250 scripts id expect to pay about 50 in tier
[5:03] Simone Stern: Conversion back to Full sims should be without charge.
[5:03] Kayleigh McMillan: sounds fair for a lower price because of the land stays the same size it would be to empty
[5:03] Femina Matahari: why dont you just close sl by christmas
[5:03] Margot LaSalle: pinning down to half prims than what we have now is like keeping the current prims of 3750 and increasing the price by 100%. Personally, I would want you to limit agents count and have openspace owners agree thatn their openspaces will not be used for clubs or commercial areas
[5:03] SexyAnn Ashley: if you change the current options to the Open sims you need to give the Estate Owners a Fair Option
Like a refund a Credit only on thier Full Sims Tiers
Not just suddenly change the Pricing or the Features to the Open Space Sims
[5:03] Krell Shinohara: keep prim counts as they are now limit scripts and number of AV's
[5:03] River Ely: Jack, please listen to your customers, we are tired of constantly paying for your mistakes and random changes. we are addicted to the Second life, but that does not mean we enjoy paying over and over while you cheat and rob us.
[5:03] Rush Gastel: i'll be happy with a refund on purchase price i dont want anything to do with you and your land
[5:03] Jack Linden: Simone: that is certainly possible
[5:03] RachelLynn Lane: I can tell you that MY plans are to FREEZE
[5:03] Yukiko Omegamu: the prim count is fine the avatar count should be limited the sciptuseage should be considered just as a reg sim
[5:03] Femina Matahari: you shafted us enough in the last two years
[5:03] Krell Shinohara: AN NO PRICE RISES
[5:03] RachelLynn Lane: I'm not buying another single anything from Lindens
[5:03] Coal Edge: Well, at this point I think Jack is trying to listen
[5:03] Dimentox Travanti: Maybe the solution is a MIDlevel Sim,, aka OS sim low prim low script, MIDLEVEL high prim limited agents like 40, and full island the full monty
[5:03] Coal Edge: itsj ust finding the answer to listen to
[5:03] Talin Sands: why not off options ?....choice....3700 prim 20 script.....1000 prim 300 scrips....somthing like that ..
[5:03] Totem Flow: Does LL actually realise how much money they will lose if all the private estate owners walk?
[5:04] Master Quatro: I hope a good attorney takes this up as a pro-bono case and takes you to court . This is so unconscionable .. and TOS won't help in court .. you can't use TOS to deceive people
[5:04] Margot LaSalle: it would also be good if every 4 of our sims were hosted on the same server so that we can monitor the performance
[5:04] Jenniferbugg Blackflag: Yes you refund on what I paid for my openspaces since it was you Lindens who told me about openspaces in the first place and what the prices were and I won't seek legal action, fair enough?
[5:04] Equinox Pinion: Jakc...why can you not just limit the agents on them??????
[5:04] Femina Matahari: you want more incom put your bloody mainland sims up to the same price as estates
[5:04] DigitalJack Blackhawk: the numbers would have to be tested to be truely fair, some objects have the same script running 20x but under mono that script would run 1x and accessed 20x so as long as the 20 scripts dont go against the 250 limit, 250 would work (with mono compiled scripts)
[5:04] Kristina Simon: me neither rachel: this is the third time i have to eat their policy change. i am so rid of it
[5:04] Omicron HUD 1.4: Wagahai Oddfellow : 1 m SW 0
[5:04] Jack Linden: Coal: thanks. and yes I am. keep it constructive please. I'm here because I know how signficant this change is. So let's talk it through
[5:04] Careltje Phoenix: well the fact is .. if LL keeps doing these *surprise* acts on residents.. SL will always be unstable .. I live here for 4 years now .. and I dont see many old players anymore . they all left due to to many *surprises* allready .. how does LL see its future with only new people or will it be able to keep long time players aswell >?
[5:04] RachelLynn Lane: OK TALK JACK
[5:04] Coal Edge: We need ideas to make it better, not complain of how its worse, we all agree it hurts us as customers in the pocket
[5:04] Rush Gastel: computers get cheaper and computing power increases so why are our prices going up
[5:05] Coal Edge: but we can maybe get something worked out
[5:05] Jack Linden: Equinox: currently we don't technically have that feature, as estate owners can reset it
[5:05] River Ely: Set your mainland prices to the SAME, as the island estates, and make VAT INCLUSIVE like any other decent business, not a one sided tax applied to Europeans and not the Americans
[5:05] Pippen Sonnenblume: Jack... why would you charge the same price for less prims than the original 1875 for OS>>>
[5:05] Master Quatro: unfortunately Coal this is just one in a series of bad decisions .. that we the funders of SL have to pay for
[5:05] Jack Linden: Pippen, it was just a number as part of a theorteical question.
[5:05] Krell Shinohara: hear hear on the VAT comment
[5:05] Coal Edge: and Jack, have you tried to see how putting the OS sims back to atleast where they were originally, to see how that would go
[5:05] River Ely: one price for all players for all land types would be fair
[5:05] Equinox Pinion: but it would be an easy change to do..wouldnt it and it would solve all our problem
[5:05] Dimentox Travanti: and there in lies the problem "currently we don't technically have that feature, as estate owners can reset it"
[5:05] Femina Matahari: because pippen they want to rip you off
[5:05] Coal Edge: its not 1500, but its atleast a little better
[5:06] Coal Edge: I ment in a test environment of course
[5:06] Jack Linden: Coal: many are already way past 1875 prims.
[5:06] Master Quatro: fix the technical issues .. and treat the tier increases as a separate issue
[5:06] RachelLynn Lane: Again It's SL's technical ineptitude as their best defense?
[5:06] Coal Edge: running the images of heavy sims
[5:06] Kayleigh McMillan: afk
[5:06] Omicron HUD 1.4: lilly Margetts : 6 m NE 0
[5:06] RachelLynn Lane: comeon if you can chang ethe prim limit you can change everything else
[5:06] Clubside Granville: Rush, that has always been my comment... unfortunately the changes to the backend have been few and far between on the primary culprits (the presence engine in particular), so until the infrastructure becomes the focus rather than the front end newer hardware can only goose performance so much...
[5:06] Coal Edge: well, yes, but... I am sure going down in prim is better to most than going up in price
[5:06] Rush Gastel: of course we are you gave us 3750 youd use them to if you bought them
[5:06] River Ely: one price for any peice of land, mainland or estate, one prive with VAT inclusive,
[5:06] King Pascale: I have nothing better to do... than discuss with all my customers about the changes..... yeah.....
[5:06] Femina Matahari: Tier increase means I close all sims and become another freeloading avatar
[5:06] Diamond Meness: Send the Estate Owner an email Jack...tell them to cut their pim and script usage down
[5:07] SexyAnn Ashley: Jack please listen to this
Have a Option for people to get a Credit for thier Open Space sims if 3 or under and convert all others for free and if they don't do it then they accept the Tier price increse and make the sims that pay that tier work better then they do currently
[5:07] Diamond Meness: but dont pusnish the majority of us who do stay within the guide lines
would go up across the board, for everyone. We all share the same market.
[5:07] Alexandra Fallon: Clearly if they decrease our prims after our purchase, that is bait and switch. No company wants to be accused of that.
[5:07] Master Quatro: Jack does the fact that people here are selling private full sims at $300 to $500 have any impact on you ? We paid $1675 for some of those sims .. is this good business ?
[5:07] Omicron HUD 1.4: Angely Larsson : 6 m + 3
[5:07] DigitalJack Blackhawk agrees with SexyAnn Ashley
[5:07] Jack Linden: SexyAnn: something like that is feasible
[5:07] Simone Stern: Conversion back to full sim for free.
[5:07] Jack Linden: We'll look at that
[5:07] Omicron HUD 1.4: Alora Jewell : 6 m NW 0
[5:07] Careltje Phoenix: Iwould like to see LL busnessplan for the comming year .. is it based on new players or is it based on keeping long time residents
[5:07] Simone Stern: That's the best option at this point.
[5:08] Jack Linden: Careltje: both are important.
[5:08] Rush Gastel: i just lost my trust in linden labs
[5:08] Coal Edge: The fact also, those of us who DID pay 250 for a open space setup, even if we tried to sell them to someone who wanted it
[5:08] Xandi Mars: any chance of delaying the increase..... until the real world is a bit more stable?
[5:08] Equinox Pinion: I dont get the problem for you jack...what are the additional costs you have the the OS sims
[5:08] Coal Edge: the 100.00 of transfer makes it useless
[5:09] Alexandra Fallon: So, since we are to be punished for LL's bad judgement call on the usage of openspace, how is LL being punished?
[5:09] Jack Linden: Equinox: let me try to explain..
[5:09] Yukiko Omegamu: why not raise mainland teirs so their on par with private estates no offence or anything but mainland is more abused then private estates
[5:09] Careltje Phoenix: well I would like to see that worked out then jack .. because if LL looks closely .. the surprises chased many long time players off allready and looking in this wroom .. some more will leave again
[5:09] Clubside Granville: Careltje, I would think the long-running issue of retention will remain the focus over this and any upcoming year... lol
[5:09] Xandi Mars: 6 months or so
[5:09] Diamond Meness: What if it's not an option to some of us to return our open spaces if we have 3 or less......what are u saying...well since u donthave more money invested you dont count?
[5:09] Equinox Pinion: please..
[5:09] tom007 Flow: and people from third world countrys wont have a hope in hell to join sl they live on 70 us a month i vote for majoraity
[5:09] Diamond Meness: no...something needs to be worked out for everyone on all levels...thats fair
[5:09] Careltje Phoenix: lol yes club
[5:09] King Pascale: Nobody will pay more for lag-estate -.- and LL earn more with Mainland... so there isnt a reason to rise it up
[5:09] Rush Gastel: i work hard creating lovely thing to make sl a better polace and everything goes to you guys now you want more
[5:09] Omicron HUD 1.4: tom007 Flow : 5 m S 0
[5:10] Rush Gastel: so dirty of you
[5:10] Rene Erlanger: Tom.....Ll has never been in touch with world economics and what other countiries average salaries are
[5:10] Equinox Pinion: King...i have a 56 sims connected OS estaste...and it doesnt lag!!!!
[5:10] Jack Linden: we have been selling OS regions as a quarter of a normal region. But the land area is the same. So, lets say normal regions have a load of 1, you'd expect Openspaces if used as originally intended to have a load of 0.25. But in fact they have a load of over 0.5
[5:10] River Ely: you kno that sims are emptying already, I have lost six or seven, that is your income reduced, follow up with these changes and that loss will hit you harder as many others elect to no longer pay your scary rates
[5:10] DigitalJack Blackhawk: i own mainland, full & os I just feel 3x jinxed recently
[5:10] tom007 Flow: we need to be ffair guys
[5:10] Jack Linden: So that really adds up to a lot of extra load on servers with 16 Openspaces on
[5:10] Rene Erlanger: if they did......they would surely lower tiers right across the board, to make it more affordable to all of its SL ciitizens
[5:10] Dimentox Travanti: Jack why not bill based upon load?
[5:10] Coal Edge: Jack, that even more shows the amount of OS on the box needs to be lessened
[5:10] Jack Linden: Rather than an Openspace server = Normal server in load, it's actually double
[5:10] Virtouse Lilienthal: or how about restricting the load?
[5:10] Master Quatro: just give us a way out
[5:10] RachelLynn Lane: AND Why didn't you know this before?
[5:11] Grascious Streeter is Offline
[5:11] Master Quatro: and we will be happy
[5:11] SexyAnn Ashley: No What I said is this
if you have more then 4 Open spaces have Linden labs Convert the 4 you have for free to a Full sim
if you have less then 4 then you get a Credit of USD toward your Full Sims Tiers so the Estate Owners have an Option
[5:11] Virtouse Lilienthal: I mean you can restrict the number of avatars, the scripting time, etc
[5:11] Equinox Pinion: Can people who are not abusing it not being moved to their server and have 16sims on one??
[5:11] Jack Linden: Rachel: this is an emerging issue, as the number of Openspaces increased, the back end load issues start to be more clear
[5:11] Master Quatro: don't leave us to hang and die .. take responsibility and buy our OS sims back or credit or something ..
[5:11] Stephen Psaltery: Jack. Why weren't hard limits on openspaces not taken as an option instead of this? What was the internal reasoning?
[5:11] Alexandra Fallon: That's a back end problem. We bought something and paid your price, now you change your mind after the money is already yours?
[5:11] Virtouse Lilienthal: There must be just the right scheduler running for that
[5:11] King Pascale: pls rise Agent LIMIT !!!!!!!!!
[5:11] Careltje Phoenix: Jack wouldnt it be best to keep sl economy stable and not change prices up and down ? everyone knows unstable bisness will fale in the end , ppl dont put trust in those companies
[5:11] Diamond Meness: That's not fair to the owners of 3 or less sims SexyAnn
[5:11] Virtouse Lilienthal: it's basically nothing else but a Virtual Machine
[5:11] Simone Stern: Then impose hard limits. Should have been done originally
[5:12] Coal Edge: and well, hrm, ok, is there a way technically to start script queueing at a lower point on OS than on normal sims
[5:12] Diamond Meness: openspace sims that is
[5:12] Clubside Granville: As I don't own any OpenSpace regions myself I'm here for some content creators who have talked to me about how this will affect them... many newer creators like the land mass of a full region even with the low prim count as it allows them to spread out their creations and make shopping for their products a bit of an adventure, and their hope is to retain what they have as they don't have the personal resources to support a starting business in another fashion
[5:12] Dimentox Travanti: I suggest you have a soft quota on cpu usage/resources and charge BURST rates with an 2x amount on usage.. just likecolos charge for bandwith....
[5:12] RachelLynn Lane: I've done testing in RL ... someone screwed up with their numbers and saw gold way too soon
[5:12] Virtouse Lilienthal: something like is possible with any virtual servers you can rent
[5:12] Coal Edge: make sure the OS scripts do not have CHANCE to get that high
[5:12] Krell Shinohara: Jack it seems more and more to me that you need to manage the load on the servers... put hard limits on OS
[5:12] Coal Edge: since they have less room already to grow, stop it before it grows
[5:12] Jack Linden: Hard limits for all areas, such as textures, traffic, content etc.. aren't supported currently in the simulator. It's an option down the line but would take time to build and QA
[5:12] RachelLynn Lane: SOooo
[5:12] Dimentox Travanti: cant you just use monitoring and Bill the hell out of the abusers?
[5:12] Coal Edge: I see that would take time, but its a better option than losing customers from this
[5:12] RachelLynn Lane: I think Time is something that is becoming more available all the time ...
[5:13] Totem Flow: then take the time...don't just piss off all your customers in one bolt from the blue
[5:13] Careltje Phoenix: i would sugest .. after this last change . make NO more changes .. *figuring this change is not reversable anymore that would be a cool statement and it would give a lot of us rest and not think * what will happen next , were will they screw us over next time
[5:13] RachelLynn Lane: you should be able to hire QA for a song
[5:13] Virtouse Lilienthal: Jack but you can restrict it by virtualization
[5:13] River Ely: http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=289652
[5:13] Virtouse Lilienthal: like it is done in the VMServers
[5:13] Krell Shinohara: if you took that route Jack rather than increasing prices i think a lot of people would have some respect for LL
[5:13] Simone Stern: So, take the time. We're not goihng anywhere yet, but a price hike without taking more care in finding a solution is going to cause a lot of poeple to log out.
[5:13] Virtouse Lilienthal: that would make it possible to run the same server code
[5:13] Careltje Phoenix: focus on qualitty rather then price issues .. more stabel grids makes for more players and so on
[5:13] Pippen Sonnenblume: Jack... in a nutshell... are you saying that we sim owners are being made to pay for Linden Labs mistakes in judgment???
[5:13] Jack Linden: Dimentox: you mean extra charges based on load? That's in interesting one, but hard to do fairly as load varies continually
[5:13] Virtouse Lilienthal: but the people just simply get lagg
[5:13] Coal Edge: I would think that maybe, you could use tweak the numbers on the current sim to just be lower, unless they really are hard coded
[5:13] SexyAnn Ashley: that is fair because you have to Own 1 Full sim anyhow to Own a Open Sim and you can use that to pay the tiers on the Full sim the $250 USD
[5:13] Kristaki Hudson: Jack Linden Keepth e prices same for hte actual sim OS but dont raise them, and do has u did for the new land stored raise prices but not to all the landlords or investors which trusted in your land and store its gonna be a HUGE MESS me i know what i will do if prices are raised. and i have invested MUCH money on a good tecnology that you do provided and i provided to my customers in secondlife
[5:13] Diamond Meness: i agree Simone
[5:13] Virtouse Lilienthal: and they will know them selves that it is overused
[5:13] Coal Edge: charging based on load goes back to charging a prim tax
[5:13] Coal Edge: from the old days
[5:13] Margot LaSalle: Jack, just apply some limitations to max number of users on any OS and the number of scripts so that you get a load of 0.25 and everything will be fine for everyone.
[5:14] Coal Edge: and I do not feel a viable solution
[5:14] Clubside Granville: RachelLynne, QA isn't an issue of hiring as this issue proves, it took a lot of time on the real grid for these issues to become apparent, you can't really simulate these conditions in a walled garden QA center
[5:14] Dimentox Travanti: Jack you take a cumlitive rate... Look at how ISP charge for bandwith overuse
[5:14] Stephen Psaltery: Jack do you realize how horribly this hurts any confidence? We never know how we are going to be ruined next. Maybe it will be in LL's best interest to drop the value of a linden by half? Do we know? Nope. CAn we plan for it? Nope!
[5:14] RachelLynn Lane: NO Clubside
[5:14] Stephen Psaltery: We need SOME sort of confidence.
[5:14] Equinox Pinion: Wyh dont you wait with that decision till you have a better solution for it on limiting the use of them?
[5:14] Virtouse Lilienthal: But it's actually kind of giving SL the last hit with a dagger what you're planing to do
[5:14] Jenniferbugg Blackflag: Also to continue the rest of my speech above to which I never got a reply to, It's NOT our fault or problem about servers, I know nothing about servers so you can't blame us for something for your servers and make us pay more, that's absurd in itself! If you're still going to be foolish and attempt to raise the prices on openspace sims then you better make it a longer time frame also more then 7 days after billing date for residents to pay their tier fees because if Second Life doesn't get their money in 7 days guess what they suspend you until they get their money!
[5:14] RachelLynn Lane: They knew almost immediately
[5:14] King Pascale: and the most OS are rent out.... when you have too much.. you dont know what the people do on your sim.... and you cant monitoring that...... so maybe you loose OS + Customers or must pay more and you dont know why... that isnt a solution !!!!
[5:14] Virtouse Lilienthal: This will not only affect estates or mainland
[5:14] Omicron HUD 1.4: Kaio Obviate : 10 m SE 0
[5:14] Jack Linden: Simone: yes.. lets keep talking. the price rises are 2 months away.
[5:14] Yukiko Omegamu: the no land owner change is what is making normal residents mad is now they cant buy them and will loook to mainlag sims
[5:14] Omicron HUD 1.4: lilly Margetts : 6 m NE 0
[5:14] Equinox Pinion: instead of just increasing the tier.....that will not help the problem
[5:14] Diamond Meness: To have no option to people who own three or less open space sims is not fiar....eveyrone need a fair option that will work for them
[5:14] Virtouse Lilienthal: no that will also affect any business which is assigned to decorating homes
[5:14] Virtouse Lilienthal: etc
[5:14] tom007 Flow: i would realy use the wisdom of king solomon hear jack it , can have a devastating result , so i wouls seek god over this matter
[5:14] Careltje Phoenix: agreees with stephen , he sais it better then i did :)
[5:15] Alexandra Fallon: No, I think we're having to pay for Linden Labs to hire someone to make these back end changes that will be for the hard limits. So, we're paying for something that should be paid for by LL not US!
[5:15] Virtouse Lilienthal: You're really are going to make a huge mistake
[5:15] Rush Gastel: keep talking more like run and hide and do itt anyway
[5:15] Careltje Phoenix: its a matter of trust I think now ..
[5:15] Equinox Pinion: the people who are using them for living will have to give them up and people who are abusing the rules will pay the higher tier
[5:15] Virtouse Lilienthal: the economy will crash like it did in RL
[5:15] Alora Jewell: I personally would vote for the script restriction and the AV restriction leaving the prims and price as is
[5:15] Virtouse Lilienthal: and it will be even worse for you :(
[5:15] Simone Stern: FANTASTIC. Let's find some compromise here. Let's remember we are in this as a team. As it is, it begins to feel like you're pitching for the opposing team.
[5:15] Rene Erlanger: So after the horse has bolted.......you want to penalise your customers?
[5:15] Equinox Pinion: i agree alora
[5:15] Kristina Simon: me too alora
[5:15] Jack Linden: Stephen: despite your frustration on this issue, do you think we have become better at being open and discussing these issues in advance of them taking place?
[5:15] Diarmuid Miklos: i agree with alora
[5:15] River Ely: bait and switch sounds like an apt description here.
[5:15] Rush Gastel: and i thought mono was going to lower the script times
[5:15] Krell Shinohara: agree with Alora
[5:15] Kayleigh McMillan: me too simone so OS can exist in the original purpose
[5:15] River Ely: so does price gouging
[5:16] Rene Erlanger: because you made a wrong assumption on loads......when you sold us on Open Space sims
[5:16] Coal Edge: I agree to find a way to make the threshold for the OS just lower than a normal sim, give the scripts (fish) a smaller sea to swim in, so to speak
[5:16] Diamond Meness: This wasnt discussed by the Estate Owners......we just got a blog saying oh...hello...yeah we are increasing.....
[5:16] SexyAnn Ashley: if Lindens credit your account for 3 or less Open sims $250 USD each for your Open sims and forced all others that not agree to the New Pricing---
I think that is fair to everyone
[5:16] Jack Linden: Simone: exactly. I would hope we all want the best for Second Life ultimately.
[5:16] Margot LaSalle: Jack, discussing about it but proceeding with the initial decision doesn't offer us much, I'm afraid :)
[5:16] RachelLynn Lane: And they knew it
[5:16] Pippen Sonnenblume: Jack... there WAS no discussion... LL arbitralily made the statement that prices will RAISE in January 2009
[5:16] Yukiko Omegamu: before making a change like this again CONTACT US BEFORE HAND so we know what the hell is going on
[5:16] RachelLynn Lane: they knew it by the first or second upgrade to Havok 4
[5:16] Diamond Meness: How is that fair SexyAnn if we are using them?
[5:16] Simone Stern: Exactly, no options were presented.
[5:16] King Pascale: HIRE PEOPLE !!! which check what the people do on the OS ..... when we pay for every OS 1USD more per month.... you can hire alot of people which play police !!!!
[5:16] Master Quatro: no Jack .. you give us the wrong information .. you entice us to buy buy buy then change the rules .. all this feedback / communication does nothing if you don't listen and help us .. simply being here is not enough
[5:16] RachelLynn Lane: it was in the blog
[5:16] Clubside Granville: It was great that you moved feedback to the Forums, Jack, where the responses could flow and not be constrained by the arbitraty comment restriction of the Blog
[5:17] Virtouse Lilienthal: Jack if it is like that, that you're really want the best for SL, you should really think about the huge negative side effects of this decision
[5:17] Careltje Phoenix: jack, if its only talking with nothing changing in the end .. wat do we *all* gain ? ll and us ? *awnsering your question to stephen
[5:17] Diamond Meness: what if i dont want to turn it in....?
[5:17] Krell Shinohara: Jack as for being open you might have announced the problem to resisdents and started a discussin on how to resolve it.... not announce your price hike solution and annoy everyone first
[5:17] Coal Edge: I think we are all here because we care
[5:17] Femina Matahari: so my open space sim I use for my own home and the one my manager uses for her home are just 2 open space sims total so am I going to lose them
[5:17] Diamond Meness: I do have residents on them
[5:17] Diamond Meness: they are being used
[5:17] Diamond Meness: so No
[5:17] King Pascale: CAN YOU PLEASE RISE THE "AGENT LIMIT"
[5:17] Virtouse Lilienthal: changing the policy ok. Increasing prices for all by 66% is killing loads of businesses
[5:17] Diamond Meness: u are only thinking of people with four or more
[5:17] Coal Edge: the stronger the words from someone, the closer to home it hits
[5:17] Diamond Meness: that's not right
[5:17] Margot LaSalle: we have had RL bubbles in economony, now we have in SL :)
[5:17] Diamond Meness: all have to be considered
[5:17] Kayleigh McMillan: i think they purpose of OS was very clear from the beginning
[5:17] Stephen Psaltery: Yes please Jack WORK WITH US. We understand if you need to increase the prices but we kind of feel like you are BURYING US ALIVE.
[5:17] Innula Zenovka bought her second open space sim from LL just an hour or so before this announcement was made..is feeling a bit irritated
[5:17] Jenniferbugg Blackflag: Can I please have a refund on my openspaces now please? *Holds out hand for money* So I can go back to work as this is obviously a waste of time.
[5:18] Jack Linden: Master: I can't promise action or change in a meeting like this and you wouldn't expect me to, but I can promise to listen and to go back and discuss the community's views with my colleagues.
[5:18] Coal Edge: Jennifer, this is not the place to even say something like that
[5:18] RachelLynn Lane: I think Jenn has the right idea
[5:18] Simone Stern: Hard limits and conversion for free back to full sims.
[5:18] Master Quatro: one difference rl prices are falling .. here they are raised 67% and 150% .. I think Jack and the Lindens took a page from the OPEC playbook
[5:18] Kristina Simon: i lost a client who wantes an OS for SAILING . he is not willing to pay this new tier
[5:18] Alora Jewell: I dont really want a credit, because I would rather keep my sim....but constantly trying to keep up with price fluctuations is too much. An option that does NOT involve us having to cough over more money yet again would be a better one I would think. If its load....decrease the ability to over load by limiting scripts and av's
[5:18] Innula Zenovka: particularly since my first one was compensation from LL for buying my first full sim a day or so before the price cuts in March
[5:18] Omicron HUD 1.4: Wagahai Oddfellow : 1 m SW 0
[5:18] Omicron HUD 1.4: Master Quatro : 4 m SW 0
[5:18] Omicron HUD 1.4: Firelight Simca : 6 m E 0
[5:18] Coal Edge: I dont want a credit either
[5:18] Omicron HUD 1.4: Femina Matahari : 2 m SE 0
[5:18] Omicron HUD 1.4: SexyAnn Ashley : 8 m SE 0
[5:18] Omicron HUD 1.4: King Pascale : 11 m SE 0
[5:18] Coal Edge: I would RATHER we find something that WORKS
[5:18] Coal Edge: most agree
[5:18] Equinox Pinion: I dont want credit! i want to keep my nice sailing estate!!!
[5:18] Diamond Meness: For peple with three sims or more....enforce the Hard Limits of 1800 prims.......and keep the tier the sam
[5:19] RachelLynn Lane: I think it should certainly be an option
[5:19] Careltje Phoenix: i know innula feeling .. i bouthg a sim last year .. 1 week before they announce NO gambling and VAT .. this is the second blow
[5:19] Jenniferbugg Blackflag: It sure is a place to say what I feel, Dee Linden just heard on the phone how I feel and told me to come here so I did, I have a right to say how I feel it's my money
[5:19] Kayleigh McMillan: gives an unsertain feeling indeed Alora all teh price changes
[5:19] Diamond Meness: that's what will work for us
[5:19] Simone Stern: I dont want a credit, but I'll take Lindens hehe :D
[5:19] Coal Edge: and if I am not mistaken, this is a good start
[5:19] Femina Matahari: Like I said you want more money and be fair raise the mainland tier fee to match private islands put us all on a level playing field
[5:19] Diamond Meness: three open space sims*
[5:19] River Ely: jack, your taking advantage of us again, we do not have limitless pockets, we do need including in changes before you implement them, we are your customers, we are IMPORTANT to you and the business you are using to generate YOUR income.
[5:19] Jack Linden: JenniferBugg: yes.. you should feel able to tell us how you feel.
[5:19] Simone Stern: If you need to enact stricter limits, then make it so.
[5:19] Krell Shinohara: i dont want credit i want my OS at the tier im paying now..... limit the avs and scripts
[5:20] Rush Gastel: i for one am really thinking to letthe land go when theese rises take affect
[5:20] Yukiko Omegamu: useage abuse fee on the residents rather then the simowner
[5:20] Dimentox Travanti: I have to run, Thats for the meeting jack, it shows you do want to listen and we do appreciateit
[5:20] tom007 Flow: people are not even making enough money on hear the econamy of making money is just not good for the avarge bussiness person as well , so how can we put up pricess
[5:20] Careltje Phoenix: yay! river !
[5:20] Simone Stern: but upping the price will *surely* kill off the business investment so many people made.
[5:20] Careltje Phoenix: HOO !!:D
[5:20] Equinox Pinion: jack...do you see any problems in limiting scripts and agents on them and if not..why dont you do that`
[5:20] Virtouse Lilienthal: Well Master Quatro they will be 150% for setup fee and 166% for tier fee
[5:20] River Ely: We need to have land at teh same price for mainland and islands and we ned to pay the same rate of tax or you are being europhobic.
[5:20] Diamond Meness: Option ONe: If u have four or more open space sims......offer conversion to full sim for free. If you have three or less OS sims....enforce the Hard Prim limit...keep tier the same.........
[5:20] Virtouse Lilienthal: it's not an increase of 150%
[5:20] Diamond Meness: that's fiar
[5:20] Yukiko Omegamu: the ones abuseing it have to pay the abuse fee
[5:20] Jack Linden: cheers Dimentox
[5:20] Twistit Saiman is Online
[5:20] Diamond Meness: fiar*what about that Jack?
[5:20] Clubside Granville: Femina, Mainland can't upload RAW files, use estate tools, raise/lower terrain more than 5m and you have no control over your neighbors... how does raising proces to match islands make that fair?
[5:20] Krell Shinohara: yes the VAT shamble needs fixing too that ruined my last business
[5:20] Virtouse Lilienthal: an increase of 150% would make the setup price 625L$
[5:20] Kayleigh McMillan: indeed Yukiko but how?
[5:20] Master Quatro: the strategy if there is one .. seems to be to drive land traffic to new themed mainland .. putting us all out of business .. Linden liked our private sim business model
[5:20] Master Quatro: now they have adopted it
[5:21] tom007 Flow: i dont understand this abouse thing , we pay for what we get
[5:21] Jack Linden: Equinox: to fully bolt down the various usage areas of an Openspace technically would take time. But i've taken note of your views on that
[5:21] Innula Zenovka: I've got all sorts of decisions to make between now and January 1..it looks to me as if I'm going to have to start planning on coverting to a second full sim, but now I'm worried there will be another nasty shock when I do that
[5:21] Alora Jewell: if the "prims" themselves are not really causing the load, but only the scripts in them.......scripts and av limitations should be fine......to me it seems the solution is very simple to keep everyone happy no?
[5:21] tom007 Flow: why is that abuse
[5:21] Master Quatro: and are in direct competition .. only they hold all the cards
[5:21] Femina Matahari: oh clubside do you think that is worth the stupidly high ammount we pay
[5:21] Simone Stern: then limit scripts. They cant do that?
[5:21] Femina Matahari: get a life and stop licking linden arses
[5:21] Yukiko Omegamu: well if parel ownership is still allowed and a sim is abused too the point they can charge the resident rather then the sim owner
[5:21] Jack Linden: Master: that simply isn't true. the new mainland areas are a drop in the ocean compared to the volume of estate land sold each month
[5:21] Jack Linden: it's a blip
[5:21] Equinox Pinion: i know it would take time....till then you can be sure that we estate owners would watch it
[5:22] Kayleigh McMillan: sounds good Yukiko
[5:22] Femina Matahari: rubbish Jack
[5:22] Clubside Granville: Not really, Femina, but as a Mainlander I don't want you giving them any ideas! lol
[5:22] Equinox Pinion: i mean we have to work together on this
[5:22] tom007 Flow: i dont see that as abuse if i am paying for what you guys offerd me
[5:22] DigitalJack Blackhawk: in a world where 1$L = .367 of a US penny the increase of OS teir in local economy terms is 13,600$L/mo seems alot harder to make up
[5:22] Femina Matahari: you been dumping land and printing money that way for 18 months
[5:22] Diamond Meness: I I would like to just put the Hard Pim limit on my open space as i dont own four as of yet......and keep the tier the same.
[5:22] Simone Stern: We have two months to find a way to limit script use on Open sims. I think that's a great place to start. And of course free conversion for those who wish it.
[5:22] Coal Edge: If you try to run something that will obviously use a full sims resources, then a slice of that pie will never be enough
[5:22] Yukiko Omegamu: i run a hosting company i charge for abused resources on a daily basis if it persists the resident should be removed from the private estate
[5:22] Jenniferbugg Blackflag: Thank you Jack for finally replying to me. I really in all honestly don't mean to sound rude but honestly I would not come here to express how I feel on this if I felt it was right and supported your raise in tiers for openspaces, I just got mine this past summer and have not even had a chance to enjoy them yet as it is, They aren't worth it for what we pay in tiers now, my full region even as a Class 5 isn't worth 295.00 a month the way it runs on a daily basis, I could rent a real apartment for that much.
[5:22] River Ely: Jack your not right about the land. Mainland is dumped every month and it takes residents away from the islands with its low pricing, hell, your shafting us all the time, and you know it.
[5:22] Femina Matahari: you killed us and you want corporate money now your not interested in us
[5:23] Simone Stern is beginnin to feel like a loopes gesture. =p
[5:23] SexyAnn Ashley: 4 or more Sims offer Free conversions
3 or less offer a Credit or Option to keep with less fuctionality for same Price Or same Fuctionality at the Higher Price.
then you are giving Options if you offer a Credit on the 3 or less Open Spaces
[5:23] Coal Edge: making sure the scripts stay within the chunck they are given seems the best solution
[5:23] Jack Linden: I hear you JenniferBugg. I'm getting slammed in IMs, emails and this chat, doing my best to reply to as much as I can
[5:23] Margot LaSalle: Jack, just set LIMITS to OS, don't raise the tier. Only limits can be a solution to heavy load
[5:23] RachelLynn Lane: This is the true suspect that we all hold ... that some how LL still thinks the corprate world will save us all
[5:23] Master Quatro: Jack it just seems that way .. it may be a drop now .. but whole continents start that way .. I wish i could trust you Jack .. you've deluded me too many times with what you call a "business plan" I don't trust you .. that's where we are at .. it's really too bad .. it's sad
[5:24] Diamond Meness: agrees with Margot
[5:24] River Ely: jack, if you do not want estate owners to sell land and get paid for it, then remove the option of allowing others to own land so that lindens are in tiotal control.
[5:24] Rush Gastel: time to start looking at another grid
[5:24] Jack Linden: Sorry to hear that Master. If you want to discuss it more at a later point we can do that too.
[5:24] Alexandra Fallon: How is a bunch of upset estate owners dumping their OS going to benefit LL in the long run?
[5:24] Master Quatro: LL is quickly losing any trust that was left .. without that you have the Wall street debacle that is playing out right now
[5:24] Diamond Meness: I think the Lidnes are getting paid very well......lol
[5:24] Diamond Meness: i dont think money is the issue
[5:24] RachelLynn Lane: oh ?
[5:25] Jack Linden: River: do you mean disabling estate land sales completely?
[5:25] Kristaki Hudson: Jack Linden Keep the prices actual for actual OS sims but dont raise them its gonna be a mess there be massive abandon of land me i think be good not to raise persons which trusted in new prices and new land store. u price raising is a 25% about....
[5:25] Jack Linden: for openspaces
[5:25] Equinox Pinion: you clearly see that we are all for putting limits on the OS...why dont you try to work something out quick and implementant it
[5:25] Careltje Phoenix: i think many ppl feel like master , jack
[5:25] Elvis Orbit: its liek over selling, seems OS sims were over sold
[5:25] Femina Matahari: Diamond money is always the issue with Lindens
[5:25] Rene Erlanger: my advice....if you clients no longer want to rent ........abandon the SIM and save yourself some future tiers. Its unlikely you'll be able to fill it with another resident paying 50 USD
[5:25] Stephen Psaltery: Jack I think a lot of us a WILLING to be reasonable. Can we set up some kind of structured discussion we we determine what COMPROMISE we can come to? You have to throw us SOME sort of bone.
[5:25] RachelLynn Lane: maybe we all stink or something? how can money not be the issue?
[5:25] Rene Erlanger: just abandon and take the 250 USD hit
[5:25] Coal Edge: Elvis, in a way I actually agree, they were over sold
[5:25] Femina Matahari: it is certainly not a caring attitude
[5:25] Alexandra Fallon: With LL's instability of changing prices at drop of a hat, the general public (I mean residents) see this. They're losing overall trust in LL as a stable and reputable company.
[5:25] Kaio Obviate: money is always the issue for LL.. loading issues could be easly solved by some restrictions.. but money comes furst, even if thers no sense
[5:26] Jack Linden: Stephen, agreed, this is a discussion. Let's see where it goes
[5:26] Rush Gastel: just refund the purchase price and i walk away
[5:26] Diamond Meness: Put restrictions on the S sims........
[5:26] Master Quatro: a couple years ago when the L$ was so unstable .. fluctuating wildly .. LL adopted a solution that brought stabilty to the currency .. mad the L$ trusted and all of us who invest in virtual worlds more secure to do business here .. unfortunately land instability has gotten much worse and no solution
[5:26] Simone Stern: Right. The way this is being solved MAKES IT ABOUT THE MONEY not the loading issues.
[5:26] King Pascale: Cancel the Openspace Sims..... only make Full-Prim Sims........ transform all OS to Full Prim Sims.... than nobody has a problem.........
[5:26] Diamond Meness: and for those who do want a refund...give it to them
[5:26] Equinox Pinion: restrict the OS on the agents
[5:26] Coal Edge: It just never made sense to me the OS were given their own instance to run it, but never coded to actually protect they only used a 4th of what a normal sim would use
[5:26] RachelLynn Lane: EXACTLY SIMONE
[5:26] Jack Linden: King: that's a bold suggestion!
[5:26] Coal Edge: like Jack said, stay within the .25 and not go into .5
[5:26] River Ely: I Jack, you are making it more and more difficult for estate managers to operate, you reduced our investment, you introduced single openspaces, it seems to me that you are eroding our ability to trade daily, it seems to me that is your goal, or why would you use covenants on the new sim areas of main land that feel like estate land, if not to take the customers away, just get it over with if thats what you intend to do. this progressive erosion of our investment is hurting many many sim owners, estate and openspace
[5:26] perfumed Odets: will there be NO tier increase for Full prim Regular sim, jack( like next yr or so)
[5:27] Diamond Meness: all this before breakfast...geesh
[5:27] Diamond Meness: lol
[5:27] RachelLynn Lane: oh shh perfumed
[5:27] Femina Matahari: King do you really think LL will ever refund you after they have your money
[5:27] RachelLynn Lane: don't give them ideas
[5:27] Kayleigh McMillan: i think we need a stabile Tier policy without to much surprices
[5:27] King Pascale: NO
[5:27] King Pascale: I only want... that the OS goes from the Market....
[5:27] Innula Zenovka: that's a very good question from perfumed.. I am worrying what may happen if I convert open spaces to full sims.... another nasty surprise?
[5:27] DigitalJack Blackhawk: its obvious Jack can't reply now and technical aspects isn't his field, Jack is the man on SL economics as such I am very suprised that he didn't open this to discussion prior to making such an announcemnt
[5:28] Simone Stern: Oh HELL no there wont be a full sim tier increase in the middle of this economy .... I'd race anyone to hit the abandon button if there were.
[5:28] Jack Linden: River: I know this is hard, but in all things like this we're basically walking a line trying to balance our own real world business needs with the needs and wished of our customers; it makes decisions like this very difficult
[5:28] Kayleigh McMillan: an increaso of tier like this is to much
[5:28] Wagahai Oddfellow: It goes back to LL's lack of scaling issue - we didn't know it would break at 64k people and not scale well, they didn't know that people would use the openspace as full sims, they didn't know.... just a lack of thinking ahead.. and now they're playing catchup the only way they know how - pricing instead of integrating limits and working on design changes to handle these "unexpected usages"
[5:28] perfumed Odets: ya innula..convering from and to and to again..and if it hits
[5:28] Jack Linden: But we do see it as a discussion, and we do listen
[5:28] Satir DeCuir is Online
[5:28] tom007 Flow: this will hit fox news if its going to be a wroong dessision jack plz use wisdom
[5:28] RachelLynn Lane: Exactly the question that was roaming thru our home office last night ... when do they screw us over on the main sim as well
[5:28] King Pascale: The most customers dont want to pay more for the same... or the same for less..... So our OS will not bring us something..... And i dont want to discuss hours over hours... why the prices goes down.... or the people have less prims...
[5:28] Kayleigh McMillan: that's good more we can not ask but it felt as an bump for most people
[5:28] Kayleigh McMillan: =bumb
[5:29] Rush Gastel: better to comedown on camping bot for screwing up the grid not us open space owners
[5:29] River Ely: jack, if you had held this meeting BEFORE your blog posting I would be inclined to give you more support
[5:29] Jack Linden: no-one has ever sold something like Openspaces before. All of this is new territory, so there are no real world models we can apply to know how things will progress.
[5:29] Omicron HUD 1.4: Krell Shinohara : 6 m SW 0
[5:29] Rush Gastel: 70000 on line yeah and 50% is bots
[5:29] Talin Sands: Jack do you not see that you are using a finacial tool to fix a technical problem..........the only way charging more money will reduce the load is in reducing the number of sims....is that really what LL wants?
[5:29] Femina Matahari: You never listen jack or any lindens you see our words you file them away and you go on your merry way screwing us year after year
[5:29] Yukiko Omegamu: raiseing prices on sim owners isnt the way to go for fixing the abuse of residents that are abuseing the resources your damging us more then the ones abuseing and the abusers will keep abuseing
[5:29] River Ely: ** agrees with RUSH
[5:29] RachelLynn Lane: Crappers Jack ... OS was around before
[5:29] Omicron HUD 1.4: Rush Gastel : 2 m SW 0
[5:29] Diarmuid Miklos: lol @ Rush
[5:29] Kayleigh McMillan: i agree but it could have been a more gentle introduction this is kind of harsh
[5:30] River Ely: BAn the camping bots that are gaming the numbers,
[5:30] Equinox Pinion: I am having OS since 1.5 years!
[5:30] Master Quatro: in my experience if I ever treated a client or customer this way .. I'd be out of business .. and maybe this is inevitable for LL too .. arrogance and lack of customer focus is a sure recipe for failure
[5:30] Simone Stern: You had knowledge of behavior on full sims, you knew people would stuyff everyone and their pixelated DOG on an open shapece sim, Jack, whoever didnt realize that needs to go back to answering phones.
[5:30] Pippen Sonnenblume: As I said half an hour ago... why not solve this simply by pulling all the OS back? Anyone who has 4 or more OS can convert... less than 4, and a credit can be given toward a full sim
[5:30] Alexandra Fallon: Ok, so you sold something and didn't know what you were selling entirely. But, if I go buy a car. The guy at the carlot can't call me a month later and say I can only drive it on Tuesdays.
[5:30] Margot LaSalle: I suggest Prims: 3750, Max Users: 20 and max number of scripts that you will decide, along with any other limitation that would keep one OS to 0.25 load
[5:30] River Ely: identify how many account holders are logged in in the total on line
[5:30] Coal Edge: But Jack, is it true, to your best knowledge, that the OS were sold without making sure the physical box's usage would never go over what it would for one sim/4?
[5:30] Jack Linden: by the way.. i see a ton of you have direct IMed me.. apologies that I haven't replied. too much text! :)
[5:30] Equinox Pinion: you could see from these sims what the load will be
[5:30] Yukiko Omegamu: go after the abusers and tell the estate owners that have abused sims
[5:30] King Pascale: whats with the REal Estate Market.... ? It crashed so hard down within the last 12 Month......... 12 month ago.. you got up to 10L$ per /sqm only Downpayment.. and now ?..... the same will be with the OS Market... so its better to close the doors and make clear, that the FP Sims are the only way to go
[5:30] Careltje Phoenix: true rush but only because SL is becomming a statement for *making money* we never started SL for that purpose .. we are being sucked with it .. or need to get out
[5:31] JohnnyD Posthorn: agrees with Margot >> limit the scriptload and avatars per sim (to fix your back end load) and keep the current prims/tier - otherwise people will simply abandon their OS sims
[5:31] Kristina Simon: Alexanda they have a monopol. they can restrict us to use our sims only on x-mas if they want
[5:31] Omicron HUD 1.4: Innula Zenovka : 5 m W 0
[5:31] Elvis Orbit: blog aganet limit
[5:31] Elvis Orbit: agent
[5:31] Coal Edge: if it was made to be sure that the OS could never go OVER what it would get if it were literally a 4th of a single sim, then abusers wouldnt have the same chance to abuse
[5:31] Jack Linden: Coal: we had not expected the demand or load increase; it would have been hard to predict
[5:31] Kayleigh McMillan: not sure this increase of tier is the answer for both linden as it's residents it is too unstabile
[5:31] Omicron HUD 1.4: Tombstone Benelli : 5 m 0
[5:31] Elvis Orbit: dotn allow soemoen to set it to 100 agents
[5:31] Omicron HUD 1.4: Pablo Sienkiewicz : 6 m 0
[5:31] Master Quatro: in turning around 3 real life ailing companies .. the only way to make money I found was through "extreme customer care" it's the only way .. there is no other way to survive in business
[5:32] Stephen Psaltery: Yes jack not only do I think we need some sort of concession on this issue. We need confidence in our land market again. This is the rollcoaster ride from hell. =\
[5:32] RachelLynn Lane: Oh again Jack ... that's just crap
[5:32] Virtouse Lilienthal: Well Jack but the price increase is a slap in the face afterwards
[5:32] Coal Edge: I can understand that, but how doable is it to now protect it now you know the problem, and why was that not thought of before the idea of raising the price without actually ADDING or changing what we have now?
[5:32] Careltje Phoenix: i thought that was the goal jack ? to iincrease .. we only use the resorsees yuo gave us
[5:32] Master Quatro: customers will either drive your business or they will leave it
[5:32] JohnnyD Posthorn: 10 agents max would even be reasonable for an OS sim
[5:32] Virtouse Lilienthal: and it hardly can be legal
[5:32] Pippen Sonnenblume: There are owners who are permitting EM privileges on OS sims to residents who know NOTHING about how to run a sim
[5:32] Simone Stern: How did you not expect what it would be when you set the limits?
[5:32] Simone Stern: You meaning LL
[5:32] River Ely: You gave me openspaces, whether i like em or not, I have customers worried about losing their investment in time and money, do I tell them its a Linden Think, they want ever more money, so pay up or leave, oh by the way, you can get cheap mainland if you want a place for your club!
[5:32] Equinox Pinion: and you have yourself an OS "Mos Ainsley" which you use heave too jack
[5:32] perfumed Odets: ya pippen
[5:32] Master Quatro: what part of your announcement shows any customer focus .. meeting customer needs ?
[5:33] Equinox Pinion: my OS are use less heavy that this OS from linden
[5:33] Omicron HUD 1.4: Wagahai Oddfellow : 1 m SW 0
[5:33] SexyAnn Ashley: Solve this Problem
1) Offer Free Converssion to Full Sims from 4 Open Sims
2) Offer a refund for those that have 3 or less
3) Offer Open sims with less fuctionality for same Cost
4) Offer Open Sims With better fuctionality at New Cost so they are worth the New cost
5) take them off the Market completely ( Open Sims )
[5:33] Master Quatro: it's all monopolistic arrogance
[5:33] RachelLynn Lane: Sorry Jack ... it's pretty obvious you're just Bait
[5:33] tom007 Flow: all i have heard is what lindens lab will gain in , where dose the people od sl fit in this , where is our gain , in all this
[5:33] Yukiko Omegamu: we all gotten screwed over by abusers ruining our sims yet whena solution is given its the wrong one
[5:33] RachelLynn Lane: I'm sticking to the FREEZE Policy
[5:33] River Ely: Why Jack, do you think people want openspaces, Let me share, so they dont have the horrors of the low priced mainland. Think about it. your taking that away and replacing it with more costs.
[5:33] RachelLynn Lane: and ya'll can just play with the bait
[5:33] Omicron HUD 1.4: Krell Shinohara : 6 m SW 0
[5:34] Tironko Trevellion: It's nice that you listen now but many people allready decided to leave sl. Is there any chance that this new "policy"is going to change ?
[5:34] Omicron HUD 1.4: Tombstone Benelli : 5 m 0
[5:34] Omicron HUD 1.4: DigitalJack Blackhawk : 6 m SW 0
[5:34] Coal Edge: I will admit, in the blog post all I saw was "you abused our server, so we are going to leave it the same and just charge you more for it"
[5:34] Simone Stern: How was it NOT EXPECTED people would build and scriopt to LL's preset limits?
[5:34] Rush Gastel: SIMPLE I JUST FEEL CHEATED
[5:34] Kayleigh McMillan: what i don't understand is how can teh price of an OS ever be attractive copair to a full sim?
[5:34] Diamond Meness: just curious...how many of 'think tank' meets have LL and estate owners had BEFORE huge changes like this are made?
[5:34] Stephen Psaltery: We want to start to hear about what Linden labs is going to do I think Jack. Thus far you've taken a passive stance that gives me no confidence that LL will do ANYTHING. I appreciate the words, but when will we hear some promises?
[5:34] Omicron HUD 1.4: Firelight Simca : 6 m E 0
[5:35] Margot LaSalle: Jack, what you are actually saying now is "Pay more for the same servers with the same overload but now our support team will run around more fixing problems". We are asking of you to PREVENT these problems by setting LIMITS
[5:35] River Ely: We asked repeatedly for support on OS sims, you gacve us none, you NEVER warned us that we were abusing your servers, why not jack, why not? was it because until last week you didnt know? was it?
[5:35] Coal Edge: I think myself, I would rather LL try to find out how to fix the problem first, before saying "we need more money"
[5:35] Diamond Meness: is there a .....group of some sort....where lindenlabs and about 10 or so estate owners have monthly meets?
[5:35] Kayleigh McMillan: unless you make an open space just as good in performence as a full sim but then half prim
[5:35] Diamond Meness: if there isnt...i would love to have onein place
[5:35] SexyAnn Ashley: Comment anyone on this
Solve this Problem
1) Offer Free Converssion to Full Sims from 4 Open Sims
2) Offer a refund for those that have 3 or less
3) Offer Open sims with less fuctionality for same Cost
4) Offer Open Sims With better fuctionality at New Cost so they are worth the New cost
5) take them off the Market completely ( Open Sims )
[5:35] Simone Stern: Right Margot
[5:35] Stephen Psaltery: Start conservatively. Most of us don't expect unconditional refunds. We need something, though. Sexyanne offers some good solutions.
[5:35] Kayleigh McMillan: half prim half price
[5:35] Margot LaSalle: SexyAnn, please don't do this
[5:35] Coal Edge: and I also admit I never saw one blog post saying it was out of hand, or that LL was suffering at the over usage of the open spaces
[5:35] Omicron HUD 1.4: RayAnderson Beaumont : 6 m 0
[5:35] perfumed Odets: i like those ideas..sexyanne
[5:36] Simone Stern: NOT ONE, Coal.mistaken
[5:36] RayAnderson Beaumont: hello everyone :-)
[5:36] Coal Edge: All I saw was "you messed up, we need more money"
[5:36] Elvis Orbit: Today is my 2nd year rezz day so far I have stood quiet and been optimistic but I am gettign worried at thefuture from this in sudden prices increases just not in OS sims but in full regions as well Suddenly
[5:36] Kayleigh McMillan: hi Ray
[5:36] Ethan Linden: Hello Ray
[5:36] Careltje Phoenix: hi ethan :)
[5:36] Equinox Pinion: We are all very upset Jack...and prolly say thinks we wouldnt say if we wouldnt be upset..can you not go back and discuss the agent limitation with your team and postpone that price increase till you find out if it is possible??
[5:36] Femina Matahari: well I have a sim on another openlife grid company and although it is way behind sl it is growing and strangely they care about their sim owners
[5:36] Simone Stern: WE didnt mess up. WE stayed within LL's PRESET limits.
[5:36] perfumed Odets: hi ray, hi ethan
[5:36] SexyAnn Ashley: don't do what?
[5:36] Alexandra Fallon: We're mind readers, Coal.. didn' t you get the memo? Oh yeah, that's right. There wasn't one.
[5:37] Diamond Meness: thats workable SexyAnn
[5:37] King Pascale: i cant believe that $1200 arent enough to maintance ONE server....... and with the Purchase Price... we paid for the Hardware,too ........
[5:37] Diamond Meness: that way its something for everyoine affect
[5:37] Coal Edge: Alexandra, that is the pure problem here, most everyone feels that we were not included in the solution until AFTER we were chastized forthe problem
[5:37] Jack Linden: okay, so lets summarise a little: I hear you on OS limits, and I hear you on the other options like free conversions. I won't obviously be making any promises in this discussion which is an ad-hoc one because I wanted to get as much feedback as I could.. but I will take all of this away and discuss it within the Lab. *if* there are outcomes or changes, then we should make those clear sooner rather than later
[5:37] Jack Linden: I completely take on board how significant this is to many of you.
[5:37] Diamond Meness: like....2 days sooner or like...Jan 1 later?
[5:37] Yukiko Omegamu: 6) Tell us whos owners of the sims which are being abused so we can fix it ourselfs 7) communicate with us on a month basis we arent mind readers we need to work as a team to get this stuff done you want our business we want trust and transparnacy on doing it with you guys.
[5:37] Pippen Sonnenblume: SexyAnn... you made some valid points... I'd like to see some dialogue from LL on that
[5:37] Equinox Pinion: geeez...i dont want free convertion!! i want to keep my nice estate!
[5:37] River Ely: What happens to trust jack?
[5:38] Elvis Orbit: please soon as well have out own customers to deal with with as well because fo this
[5:38] Simone Stern: ASAP please so we can tend to our people who are throwing even bigger fits in our faces (if that's possible =p)
[5:38] Coal Edge: Equinox, a lot of us want to keep it
[5:38] Stephen Psaltery: Thank you, Jack.
[5:38] Pablo Sienkiewicz: can we let the man talk?
[5:38] Femina Matahari: the only changes will be you applying it in december rather thatn january
[5:38] RayAnderson Beaumont: it makes now sense that on one wqay LL allow to place open space sims separatelly to tell us now they can't get used
[5:38] [1] eyeing Daligdig: ao on
[5:38] Equinox Pinion: so free convertion is not the solution for us
[5:38] Rene Erlanger: i mema really......there is far too much land anyway in LL.......its swamped. Look how much yellow is on that World map. There is no concept of supply and demand being used
[5:38] Coal Edge: and yes, we, me and a few others I see, want limits
[5:38] Clubside Granville: Thanks for the discussion, Jack.
[5:38] Kayleigh McMillan: and my suggestion is half a sim 7500 prims full performance and for example ¼ sim 37500 prims
[5:38] Stephen Psaltery: Yes I second that. Please ASAP on the information Jack. We need to move quickly or we'll lose TONS of money, so we need all the facts as soon as possible.
[5:38] Rush Gastel: nice hat ethan linden very apt being a pirate hat
[5:38] Coal Edge: something that makes it more secure, to know our sim is not using MORE than it should
[5:38] Diamond Meness: i dont want to reasure my tenants that everything is fine....lol...and then blame it's not again
[5:38] Omicron HUD 1.4: Equinox Pinion : 3 m SW 0
[5:38] River Ely: jack, please place a rescind on the blog, my customers are reading it. and will only have my word for it that you may reconsider
[5:38] Rene Erlanger: what is it now 2.5 logins to a single SIM.....thats absurd
[5:38] Diamond Meness: they will no longer have my trust
[5:39] Diamond Meness: and that'si important to me
[5:39] Master Quatro: please convey to the Linden team that this is not a technical issue anymore Jack .. it's truly become a trust issue .. we have lost trust in the ability of LL to treat it's customers fairly .. and equitably
[5:39] Kayleigh McMillan: just as a full sim only alowed to buy by island owners
[5:39] perfumed Odets: some would want the free conversion options too, equi
[5:39] Jack Linden: Can I just thank you all for coming and talking with me. For the most part this was constructive and calm, which I know is difficult. I bet a few of you were biting our tongues a little and I appreciate that.
[5:39] Diamond Meness: new month si coming up
[5:39] Elvis Orbit: Thansk JAck
[5:39] Careltje Phoenix: i agree with the trust remarks , very much
[5:39] Master Quatro: you must restore that trust .. if those of us who have suppoerted you (over 3 years here) all this time
[5:39] Talin Sands: Jack reply fast PPL are quitting sims already
[5:39] Simone Stern gave it the college try =p
[5:39] Coal Edge: Hey, freedom of speech is a privledge not a right :p
[5:39] DigitalJack Blackhawk: and 2 months is not enough notice to realisticly adjust business
[5:39] Diamond Meness: please keep in mind that losts of us have rent due in a few days
[5:39] JohnnyD Posthorn: yes please update the blog - I have 2 people IM already wanting to abandon their OS sims
[5:39] Coal Edge: thanks for hearing us out
[5:39] Kristina Simon: i am not willing to buy ANY lindenlab land any more. my trust is totally gone
[5:39] Jack Linden: Lets keep talking. I will reply more in the forums, and I will try to do more sessions like this over the next few days
[5:39] Stephen Psaltery: Thanks for understanding the effort it took jack. Heh
[5:39] SexyAnn Ashley: Jack I would like to talk to you further on this
[5:40] Master Quatro: are to believe that this is truly "our world" "our imagination"
[5:40] Femina Matahari: butter us up Jack it means nothing though
[5:40] Coal Edge: and ok what I said didnt come out as I ment it, but you get the idea
[5:40] Pablo Sienkiewicz: was grandfather mention?
[5:40] Babe Daligdig: why advertise open spaces to be the next best thing to slice cheese ..offer 3750 prim useage if the servers cant handle it ... what was it jack .. pull us all in so deep then slam us with a tier raise that we all cant escape .... we bought the open spaces under terms ..250 usd land cost 75 tier ... how do you justify 66% increase when we work so hard to even make anything on them now ?
[5:40] perfumed Odets: no pablo
[5:40] Diamond Meness: Honestly Jack..this is something that always need to be done
[5:40] River Ely: Announce on the blog the price changes are not in force until after discussions or this is a waste of time as i have residents that are talking about leaving
[5:40] Jack Linden: Femina. I don't butter. I'm very eager to work with everyone and to make this a discussion
[5:40] Coal Edge: well, Pablo, for one I would rather see it be fixed without raising the price first
[5:40] Master Quatro: right now it's Linden's world and Linden's lack of any imagination in solving problems
[5:40] Diamond Meness: I propose a monthly pow wow...with LL and estate owners
[5:41] Pablo Sienkiewicz: jack can you look into that, please?
[5:41] Elvis Orbit: I agree Diamond in diff time zones as well
[5:41] Coal Edge: Lets see what Jack comes up with on fixing it first
[5:41] Coal Edge: so we dont HAVE to pay more
[5:41] Elvis Orbit: Thanks jack
[5:41] Femina Matahari: yeah sure Jack fogive me if I dont believe you
[5:41] Stephen Psaltery: Pablo, they said granfathered openspaces would be upgraded to the increased price as well.
[5:41] Rush Gastel: I JUST FEEL CHEATED
[5:41] Desari Deledda: Already I have begun to figure out ways of minimizing this situtation, with ideas of perhaps converting....but I'll be taking on a lot of responsibility in tier doing that.....I would really like to see us get a break in that conversion. We can't afford to do it and pay 850 usd too.
[5:41] Omicron HUD 1.4: King Pascale : 11 m SE 0
[5:41] Krell Shinohara: Agreed River take aback the announcement and say its under discussion
[5:41] River Ely: Announce on the blog the price changes are not in force until after discussions or this is a waste of time as i have residents that are talking about leaving
[5:41] Virtouse Lilienthal: Diamond Meness there's a weekly meeting already for land related questions
[5:41] Virtouse Lilienthal: Diamond Meness thursdays
[5:41] River Ely: this is madness
[5:41] Femina Matahari: you are cheated Rush it what Linden labs are good at
[5:42] Pippen Sonnenblume: Jack... River has a point...
[5:42] Pablo Sienkiewicz: Stephen i meant the possibilitie of having grandfather voids as they have full prim islands
[5:42] Virtouse Lilienthal: I think
[5:42] Femina Matahari: the only thing they are good at
[5:42] Virtouse Lilienthal: lol I can't remember
[5:42] River Ely: you hold a gun to our heads and say you will think about it?
[5:42] Pippen Sonnenblume: this is starting a mass exodus
[5:42] Krell Shinohara: river has a good point
[5:42] Diamond Meness: i'm talking on a deeper level
[5:42] Diamond Meness: Meetings that would avoid issues like this
[5:42] Pablo Sienkiewicz: I mean, in Spain is just not legal to change the rules of a contract once the transaction has been made, is it in the States?
[5:42] Equinox Pinion: i think it would be good if you post on the blog that you are considering other options...as you scared many people
[5:42] perfumed Odets: i think giving ppl options and choices between paying more or converting OS back to regular sim for free and..giving LL time to come up with solutions to fix the tech issues regarding OS performances sound good
[5:42] Babe Daligdig: you bring in open spaces ..empty our full prim lands .. force us to go with the ** new trend ** .... now your gonna empty our open spaces ?
[5:42] Virtouse Lilienthal: Pablo it's not only in spain like that
[5:43] RayAnderson Beaumont: with this new tier prices the most of the landowners will loose their land
[5:43] Stephen Psaltery: Yes jack can we have a suspension on the date while you guys discuss this? I'd hate to wait for the outcome of the discussion only to find a few weeks before january nothing changes and I've lost all that time.
[5:43] Andy Grant: i believe the fundamental question is who screwed up ? LL underpriced the sims, but asking customers to fund writeoff costs is just beyond ridiculous.... my opinion offer existing customers 12months without increasing tier
[5:43] Diamond Meness: i now have prepare myself for my tenants
[5:43] Omicron HUD 1.4: Rush Gastel : 2 m SW 0
[5:43] Desari Deledda: This isn't a democracy we live in Pablo
[5:43] Diamond Meness: dont know what to tell them yet
[5:43] Equinox Pinion: Andy...it doesnt matter who screwed it up...we need to solve it!!
[5:43] Pablo Sienkiewicz: ok jack is gone...
[5:43] Diamond Meness: as the outcome will decided weather they will stay or leave
[5:43] Coal Edge: I would rather not have to pay more, if the limits work it may not even be possible
[5:43] Diamond Meness: so i need answers fast
[5:43] Coal Edge: well, we wont get an answer fast I dont think
[5:44] Innula Zenovka seconds Stephen's point.. I'm worried, too, that we face some weeks of uncertainty followed by a mad scramble, just before Christmas, to deal with whatever's finally decided
[5:44] River Ely: JACK, make a note on the blog to rescind the statement this morning, we are going to lose custoemrs and in some cases will fold
[5:44] Pippen Sonnenblume: Hmmm... the Lindens have left the building
[5:44] Omicron HUD 1.4: lilly Margetts : 6 m NE 0
[5:44] Omicron HUD 1.4: Totem Flow : 6 m SW 0
[5:44] Rush Gastel: only increase future sim and dont allow grand fathering i would be happywith that
[5:44] SexyAnn Ashley: Can I say something everyone please
[5:44] Diamond Meness: lol
[5:44] Diamond Meness: yeah they gone
[5:44] SexyAnn Ashley: and people listen a moment
[5:44] Krell Shinohara: I believe this is a screw up but we can either Witch Hunt (appropriate with halloween) or we can resolve the problem, I know what I would rather do.
[5:44] perfumed Odets: yea innula
[5:44] Coal Edge: Krell, me also
[5:44] Omicron HUD 1.4: Maddison Dagostino : 6 m E 0
[5:44] Pablo Sienkiewicz: Coal i went from mainland to estates casue of VAT, we will always have to pay more, i will just like some alternatives...
[5:44] Andy Grant: equinox: i just offered a solution 12months of no change in tier everybody happy
[5:44] Krell Shinohara: Same happend to me Pablo
[5:45] Rene Erlanger: unfortunately....i doubt it will change anything. he might offer you a little bone of a free conversion fee, but thats about it
[5:45] Coal Edge: well, would you rather be forced to pay EVEN more, or make it work for the current price
[5:45] Tironko Trevellion: Is this an overused openspace sim ?
[5:45] Femina Matahari: last time I say it if you want to be fair Increase land tier on mainland so it is like in 2006 when it was all the same so we are all on a level playing field. Your even stealing our covenant way that gave us our one adavantage
[5:45] Pablo Sienkiewicz: yeah andy like they care....
[5:45] Omicron HUD 1.4: Krazi Babii : 28 m W + 11
[5:45] Tironko Trevellion: ^^
[5:45] SexyAnn Ashley: We have 2 months to act on this if it was Imediate then there is no time to change I think that they will change this issue so give it time to come into effect
[5:45] Diamond Meness: i would perfer make it work for the current price
[5:45] Master Quatro: unfortunately not many of us trust LL anymore .. it's hard to believe anything they say
[5:45] Equinox Pinion: well...that is not the long term solution...if they really have problems with the load
[5:45] King Pascale: and we must start now....
[5:45] Coal Edge: thats my point, lets find a current solution
[5:45] Krell Shinohara: Jack this to me sounds like a time for LL to earn some trust from its residents.
[5:45] Femina Matahari: yeah leave sl thats the only way
[5:45] Andy Grant: equinox: soluton 2 fire the idio who underpriced OS'es
[5:46] Omicron HUD 1.4: SexyAnn Ashley : 8 m SE 0
[5:46] Babe Daligdig: is linden labs that stupid to see this coming .. offering 3750 prims for light use?
[5:46] River Ely: they shafted us again folks, pas me some more lube!
[5:46] Andy Grant: idiot*
[5:46] Diamond Meness: and i'm ashamed at all u men....sitting and letting us women stand
[5:46] Coal Edge: Jack is gone :\
(I had to remove the private IM's from teh log, sorry for the delay)
River Ely
the Lindens posted this:
Effective Immediately
We will no longer allow the Owner of an Openspace to be changed to a different resident than the Payor. Initially we will not enforce this change on Openspaces where the Payor and Owner are already different but in those cases the only change allowed will be to set the Owner back to the Payor. This doesn’t affect the parcel level rentals, this is just focussed on the whole region rental of Openspaces.
We will no longer offer an educational or non-profit discount for new Openspaces. As mentioned earlier, this is due to the increased back end resource required for us to support Openspaces in the way that they are now being used. For the small number of Educators that already have Openspaces, we will be contacting you directly to discuss this change.
Next, we will be making changes to the viewer that enable residents to know precisely what type of land or region they are on so that the land market remains as fair and easy to understand as possible. So expect to see changes that much more clearly display to residents whether they are on Linden Mainland or Private Estate, whether it is a Normal region or Openspace and what that means. This will affect various aspects of the Viewer including the inworld Search along with the About Land and Buy Land screens. Making Land easier to understand will benefit everyone, especially new users looking to step onto the property ladder for the first time.
Lastly we will begin to proactively discuss overloaded Openspaces with their owners. This is important because as with abuse of region resources, a heavily overloaded Openspace can adversely affect other Openspaces sharing the same machine which is clearly unfair to residents who are using them responsibly. We have listened to your feedback on this, and agree that we need to make changes to better support our Openspace users by actively working to keep the performance levels as high as possible. We will also provide some detailed guidance about what ‘overuse’ looks like and how to prevent it.
So to recap:
- Openspace prices and fees change on the 1st January with no grandfathering.
- Class 4 Openspaces will be upgraded to class 5 in January.
- Educator discount is no longer available for Openspaces.
- No Owner switching for Openspaces unless it’s a full transfer of Payor.
- More proactive education by support staff to prevent unfair resource use by Openspace regions.
I went to a town hall meetimng, here is the content:
[4:51] SexyAnn Ashley: If Linden Labs does not want the Open Spaces on the Gride by Estate Owners in how they are Used Jack then refund them ------ Offer those with 4 or more to make them all Full Sims for Free and refund the People with 3 or less and Credit thier account thier value of $250 USD
[4:51] Omicron HUD 1.4: Kaio Obviate : 12 m SE 0
[4:51] Coal Edge: In a way it does seem we are paying for LL making the mistake of thinking 4 open spaces could run on one core
[4:52] Careltje Phoenix: performance have never been optimal ever .. will this mean you have more money to spend on better perfomance ?
[4:52] Jack Linden: Stephen: I totally understand the frustration. And we'll be reading every piece of feedback we get and considering every option available, as we always do.
[4:52] Master Quatro: we are definitely paying the price for bad mistakes .. misjudgements and overall incompetence ..
[4:52] Simone Stern: Why were prim limits set and then not expected to be used accordingly?
[4:52] shazzray Streeter gave you Changes in tiers - IMPORTANT.
[4:52] SexyAnn Ashley: Refund the ones of 3 or less and force all others to be full sims and just take them off the market
[4:52] Rene Erlanger: yes refund everyone,,,,and we'll in turn past the refunds to all the residents
[4:52] Jenniferbugg Blackflag: You can't sit there as Lindens and tell me verbally on the phone "Hey you know since you own a full region that you can buy an openspace sim for 250.00 and 75.00 a month in tiers" trying to talk me into it as many Lindens have and now expect me to pay more money in January out of all times after Christmas when everyone needs their money the most, This is nuts and a nightmare! This is not real life but second life, who wants to pay all that money for a 3D chat program that's not in fact real? Not me...Not anymore!
[4:53] RachelLynn Lane: Because the didn't test Havok4 correctly on the open sims
[4:53] Stephen Psaltery: It is is completely within your right to raise prices when you want, Jack, but Linden Lab holds some responsibility here. This is EXACTLY like the telehub fiasco. I think we need to see some compensation now just like then. I think the fee to conert opensims back to regular sims should be FREE for current opensim owners only. Let us get out of this with our skins intact.
[4:53] Totem Flow: how can you be considering every option, when you have already announced your plans???
[4:53] Rene Erlanger: no one would have bought open space sims back in April other than personal use.......if you told them to expect a 67% increase by Jan 08
[4:53] Coal Edge: It isnt that the software there isnt doing the right job, apparantly if we are to understand this correctly, its the people OVER USING the new system
[4:53] Coal Edge: that is making it "break down"
[4:53] RachelLynn Lane: They didn't have correct ideas about how many prims os could support on havok 4
[4:53] Diamond Meness: Linden labs definately needs to think this one over again
[4:53] Jack Linden: Muli: no we are not. we're a privately owned company
[4:54] Laurynna Bailey: Ok Jack, so you now how most of us are feeling.......what other solution can you offer us so that it's a fair compromise??
[4:54] Master Quatro: this land thing has been so mismanaged .. I've run 3 real life companies all bigger then LL .. and you all would have been fired for the gross negligence and mismanagement
[4:54] Clubside Granville: It's not just prims Simone, while they were raised in anticipation of performance increases from Havok 4 and MONO, scripts, assets (in particular textures) and other needs have contributed to problems not only on the OpenSpaces themselves but the Grid in general, if I understand Jack's answer to me earlier.
[4:54] Kayleigh McMillan: isn't their an other sulation such as making open spaces available indeed for 75 us but with other ristrictions?
[4:54] Careltje Phoenix: lol master
[4:54] Rene Erlanger: Do you have an Economist on board at LL?
[4:54] Simone Stern: I agree. We didnt 'blatantly misuse and abuse' LL policy as set. We ADHERED to it, and now we're about to be punished for it. Conversion back to FULL SIM should be free.
[4:54] Kaio Obviate: Jack, this is disastrous decision. You really need to think about it more seriously
[4:54] Master Quatro: this is la la land .. not a business
[4:54] Coal Edge: This is a small voice of the true people affected, we are being told "pay more for what you are using, and by the way, use LESS of it too"
[4:54] Master Quatro: with customer care .. client concern
[4:54] Kristina Simon: hi everyone
[4:55] Kayleigh McMillan: hi kristina:-)
[4:55] Master Quatro: MBA University of Illinois
[4:55] Jack Linden: yes, that is why I'm here - to talk to as many people as possible and get your feedback.
[4:55] Clubside Granville: Howdy
[4:55] Kristaki Hudson: Jack why u dont u plan to keep actuall all open spaces sim son secondlife at hte actual pries and new sims pruchased then at u new price politic so all ppl which invested so much money in sl not to sink.... even our land are rented i mean think of all of us which trusted in u new land sotre whic is vey good and the prices u did on new land stored
[4:55] Diamond Meness: Over all feedback....this is NOT acceptable
[4:55] Diamond Meness: lol
[4:55] RachelLynn Lane: It's in the forums ... you have enough info already
[4:55] SexyAnn Ashley: If you want the Open Sim Problem stopped
1) tell everyone to convert to full sims that have 4 or more
2) Refund any that are less then 4 left over
3) Problem solved without a Economical Problem and Pissing off the people that spend the most money in Second Life
[4:55] Laurynna Bailey: You HAVE our FEEDBACK.........but what WILL you now CHANGE to make this workable and fair????
[4:55] Careltje Phoenix: will our feedback change the plans allready made Jack ?
[4:55] Omicron HUD 1.4: Kayleigh McMillan : 10 m SE 0
[4:55] RachelLynn Lane: we are thru talking ... we want to HEAR YOU
[4:55] JohnnyD Posthorn: I have 2 of my buddies in IM right who I bought 4 Openspace sims on their behalf - they are abandoning the lot. They are (quite rightly) furious as they have been ripped off
[4:55] RachelLynn Lane: JACK
[4:55] Dimentox Travanti: I am just kinda sad ill loose my Development land for DCS .... LOL not really pissedor mad.. It was a loss leader and always will be
[4:56] Simone Stern: Conversion back to Full sims should be without charge.
[4:56] Firelight Simca: You have a rough job, Jack.
[4:56] Coal Edge: First of all, telling us we are abusing what we paid for is sort of harsh, the blog to me did not accept responsibility for the back end issues, it put the blame on US for using what was SOLD to us
[4:56] River Ely: hate to say it, but I support the idea of returning the openspace sims to their orioginal design, four at a time, one attached to a full sim, low prim count, very low prim count. then maybe we island owners can sell land again, cos for now we are struggling
[4:56] Kristina Simon: i have just split 5 fullsims into open sims. thanks to this policy i am ruined
[4:56] Stephen Psaltery: Jack, please be honest.. does our feedback mean anything? Or is this just a move to calm the riot and continue?
[4:56] Fahra Fawcett is Offline
[4:56] Jack Linden: SexyAnn.. free conversions to normal regions is an option. We'll give that some thought if it would help
[4:56] Careltje Phoenix: JACK does this feedback change any of the plans allready been made ?
[4:56] RachelLynn Lane: Come on Jack talk it up
[4:56] Stephen Psaltery: Jack, yes. Free conversions is what we want.
[4:56] RachelLynn Lane: tell us something
[4:56] Diamond Meness: Why are decisions like this constanly mad without even asking for our opion before LL makes up it mind
[4:57] Coal Edge: Jack, if we are to pay more, how likely is it that we can reduce the amount of open spaces on one core by half,
[4:57] Elvis Orbit: Reduction in Regular SIm fees woudl be nice as well ....
[4:57] Stephen Psaltery: It's the LEAST we can do.
[4:57] Coal Edge: atleast make it worth it, since you DID increase your income to make up for it
[4:57] Diamond Meness: As we are the affected parties
[4:57] Master Quatro: half my clients are leaving they will not pay the increase .. so what do i do with the OS sims .. yes it was my decision to buy them and my risk .. but I had to trust that LL is an ethical business that cares about its clients and not put them out of business
[4:57] Firelight Simca: Yes, free conversions to normal sims would help.
[4:57] SexyAnn Ashley: Free conversions would calm alot of these issues Jack
[4:57] Careltje Phoenix: jack please awnser . will this feedback change any of the plans allready been made ?
[4:57] Yukiko Omegamu: to be blunt theres 3 of the bigestest estates in sl are effected and many others that have alot are also some are too busy to come and this situation is forceing them to reconsidering abandoning them dropping over 1400+ sims altogethor
[4:57] SexyAnn Ashley: and a credit to accounts to those who want them would too
[4:57] Spike Linden: Guys, there are multiple questions being answered and Jack only have two hands.. please give him a chance to respond. [4:57]
[4:57] Omicron HUD 1.4: Xandi Mars : 5 m NE + 1
[4:57] Omicron HUD 1.4: lilly Margetts : 6 m NE 0
[4:57] Jack Linden: Careltje; feedback is essential, of course. the problems are clear. if it makes sense for us to change tack, as with any area of policy, we would review it.
[4:57] Coal Edge: and conversions do not help those of us who bought them for actual personal uses, I own 2, so that does not help me
[4:57] Omicron HUD 1.4: Arvik Gustafson : 3 m W 0
[4:57] Femina Matahari is Online
[4:58] Simone Stern: Conversion back to Full sims should be without charge.
[4:58] Rene Erlanger: Trust has been dead along time ago......this is just another nail in the coffin.......for some it will be the one that takes them over the edge
[4:58] Careltje Phoenix: ty jack
[4:58] RachelLynn Lane: Ditto me on Rene
[4:58] Pippen Sonnenblume: Jack... you are TELLING us nothing right now...
[4:58] Clubside Granville: Jack, maybe if we better understood how the internet pipes were tied to regions... do four OpenSpaces also share a single pipe like they do a CPU/Core? Is their bandwidth pressure as more of these are actively in use? Are bottlenecks forming as more distinct regions are actively used (as in occupied by any number of avatars greater than zero)?
[4:58] Jack Linden: Coal: interesting question. I'd have to look into that
[4:58] Xandi Mars: oh you just rezzed
[4:58] Omicron HUD 1.4: Innula Zenovka : 5 m W 0
[4:58] Equinox Pinion: free conversion is nothing..what about all the people who build up their homes on OS..they will loose everything
[4:58] [9] Femina Matahari: sling
[4:58] Xandi Mars: sorry for the butt action
[4:58] Omicron HUD 1.4: Femina Matahari : 2 m SE 0
[4:59] Dimentox Travanti: yeah conversion would kill me.. LOL i have no plans to move my personal dev place to a full island its not feasable
[4:59] Jack Linden: Clubside.. yes. the 4 openspaces on a CPU share not just the cpu, but also the Memory for all 16 on that server, and the bandwidth for all 16 too
[4:59] Equinox Pinion: i have 100 OS sims...and i know...only 2 of them have heavy traffic
[4:59] Jack Linden: a very loaded openspace can and does impact all 16 on that server if it's bad enough
[4:59] Master Quatro: you guys just don't get it .. CUSTOMERS count .. they pay your bills .. your salaries .. you are putting us out of business
[4:59] SexyAnn Ashley: 1) Free Conversion
2) Credit people thier acount to abandon the Open sims to thier next month tiers on thier Full sims
3) then you have 90% of the Open sims off the Market
[4:59] Diamond Meness: Conversion would not be helpful for me either
[4:59] Equinox Pinion: you are just not telling the true about the usage on them
[4:59] Coal Edge: I agree that 4 per core, and eating the other resources can be a big tax, I do think something fair would be to give us more for what we pay for, not in prims but
[4:59] Coal Edge: reliability
[5:00] Clubside Granville: That explains a lot as local rendering gets such a narrow pipe causing slower calls to the distributed asset and presence services...
[5:00] Equinox Pinion: i doubt there are 5% who abuse the usage
[5:00] Femina Matahari: so you increase the tier fee and the europeans also pay more VAT and the gap widens
[5:00] Coal Edge: reducing the load in half would help hardware wise
[5:00] Equinox Pinion: and you blame us all for it!
[5:00] Totem Flow: Target the abusers, send warnings.. emails anything... god its not difficult
[5:00] Careltje Phoenix: agrees with femina
[5:00] Rush Gastel: getting bent over a barrel and shafted sounds right to me
[5:00] Diamond Meness: I agree Totem
[5:00] Dimentox Travanti: LOL how about making the OS sims use the cpu of their main FUll island jack?
[5:00] Femina Matahari: I sold or closed 6 sims already in the last 2 months
[5:00] Diamond Meness: Targe the abuser
[5:00] Krell Shinohara: cap performance on OS sims do not take more money
[5:00] RachelLynn Lane: agrees with femina, coal, equinox, totme
[5:00] Diamond Meness: get them
[5:00] Equinox Pinion: you should inscrease the tier for OS which are used heavy...not for homes!!
[5:01] SexyAnn Ashley: then you are working with the heart of the SL community not just pissing everyone off during a resession and during the Holidays
[5:01] Kristina Simon: me too femina.
[5:01] Equinox Pinion: or sailing areas
[5:01] Master Quatro: these 2 issues are being linked together .. they are not .. they are separate .. one is technical the other is gouging
[5:01] Femina Matahari: I will close the rest if there is no drop in tier fee
[5:01] Elvis Orbit: They sound not be able to run any more than they can, allowign to do them to do so is a mistake
[5:01] Jenniferbugg Blackflag: This is quite a shock to me that my hands are even shaking in real life, it's a shame that you people have to upset people so badly it effects your real life, all I know is if I'm billed come January for more money, I'll be contacting an attorney regarding this matter, As I said you as Lindens cannot verbally tell me something on the phone and tell me I can get an openspace for 250.00 an only pay 75.00 a month and I wind up buying 2 and what I pay now in tiers is bad enough, I haven't even had my openspaces for a whole year yet and you do this!
[5:01] perfumed Odets: free conversion back to Full prim regular sim would help, Jack...in some way
[5:01] Kristina Simon: and for the same reason
[5:01] Jack Linden: okay so here is a question; do you think us pinning prim counts down to say 1500, and limiting script count to 250, would be acceptable if the price stayed as it now? I'm not suggesting this is possible, but I'm interested in your opinions
[5:01] Alexandra Fallon: The underestimation on LL's part that people might actually push it, use ALL of what they can is what is punishing us now. So, because LL underestimated a human's ability, we pay?!
[5:01] Kristina Simon: NO
[5:01] RachelLynn Lane: PFF JACK
[5:01] Dimentox Travanti: The script count is a bit low... The prim count i could care less about
[5:01] Kristina Simon: NP
[5:02] Omicron HUD 1.4: Rush Gastel : 2 m SW 0
[5:02] Rush Gastel: how about a rfund on purchase price
[5:02] Careltje Phoenix: I think that will help jack .. reduce so ppl cant abuse anymore
[5:02] RachelLynn Lane: YES MULI
[5:02] Femina Matahari: NO
[5:02] RachelLynn Lane: THEY TESTED WRONGLY AND NOW WE PAY
[5:02] Femina Matahari: it wouldnt
[5:02] Coal Edge: Jack, that IS a start, but thats lower prim wise than we originally received for the 50 if I am not mistaken
[5:02] Krell Shinohara: i would think with a higher prim count and limited scripts it would be an option
[5:02] Coal Edge: 50 tier I ment
[5:02] Krell Shinohara: higher than 1500 i mean
[5:02] Clubside Granville: It certainly would solve the problem faced by the sailing community raised by MarkTwain, Jack...
[5:02] Kristina Simon: why don't you limit the avatars to 10 ! this would be acceptable
[5:02] Equinox Pinion: or clients limit on them
[5:02] Kaio Obviate: no hostage business raise prices when they cant support their own services
[5:02] Master Quatro: we pay for your incompetence
[5:02] Omicron HUD 1.4: Krell Shinohara : 6 m SW 0
[5:02] Dimentox Travanti: for 1500 prim and 250 scripts id expect to pay about 50 in tier
[5:03] Simone Stern: Conversion back to Full sims should be without charge.
[5:03] Kayleigh McMillan: sounds fair for a lower price because of the land stays the same size it would be to empty
[5:03] Femina Matahari: why dont you just close sl by christmas
[5:03] Margot LaSalle: pinning down to half prims than what we have now is like keeping the current prims of 3750 and increasing the price by 100%. Personally, I would want you to limit agents count and have openspace owners agree thatn their openspaces will not be used for clubs or commercial areas
[5:03] SexyAnn Ashley: if you change the current options to the Open sims you need to give the Estate Owners a Fair Option
Like a refund a Credit only on thier Full Sims Tiers
Not just suddenly change the Pricing or the Features to the Open Space Sims
[5:03] Krell Shinohara: keep prim counts as they are now limit scripts and number of AV's
[5:03] River Ely: Jack, please listen to your customers, we are tired of constantly paying for your mistakes and random changes. we are addicted to the Second life, but that does not mean we enjoy paying over and over while you cheat and rob us.
[5:03] Rush Gastel: i'll be happy with a refund on purchase price i dont want anything to do with you and your land
[5:03] Jack Linden: Simone: that is certainly possible
[5:03] RachelLynn Lane: I can tell you that MY plans are to FREEZE
[5:03] Yukiko Omegamu: the prim count is fine the avatar count should be limited the sciptuseage should be considered just as a reg sim
[5:03] Femina Matahari: you shafted us enough in the last two years
[5:03] Krell Shinohara: AN NO PRICE RISES
[5:03] RachelLynn Lane: I'm not buying another single anything from Lindens
[5:03] Coal Edge: Well, at this point I think Jack is trying to listen
[5:03] Dimentox Travanti: Maybe the solution is a MIDlevel Sim,, aka OS sim low prim low script, MIDLEVEL high prim limited agents like 40, and full island the full monty
[5:03] Coal Edge: itsj ust finding the answer to listen to
[5:03] Talin Sands: why not off options ?....choice....3700 prim 20 script.....1000 prim 300 scrips....somthing like that ..
[5:03] Totem Flow: Does LL actually realise how much money they will lose if all the private estate owners walk?
[5:04] Master Quatro: I hope a good attorney takes this up as a pro-bono case and takes you to court . This is so unconscionable .. and TOS won't help in court .. you can't use TOS to deceive people
[5:04] Margot LaSalle: it would also be good if every 4 of our sims were hosted on the same server so that we can monitor the performance
[5:04] Jenniferbugg Blackflag: Yes you refund on what I paid for my openspaces since it was you Lindens who told me about openspaces in the first place and what the prices were and I won't seek legal action, fair enough?
[5:04] Equinox Pinion: Jakc...why can you not just limit the agents on them??????
[5:04] Femina Matahari: you want more incom put your bloody mainland sims up to the same price as estates
[5:04] DigitalJack Blackhawk: the numbers would have to be tested to be truely fair, some objects have the same script running 20x but under mono that script would run 1x and accessed 20x so as long as the 20 scripts dont go against the 250 limit, 250 would work (with mono compiled scripts)
[5:04] Kristina Simon: me neither rachel: this is the third time i have to eat their policy change. i am so rid of it
[5:04] Omicron HUD 1.4: Wagahai Oddfellow : 1 m SW 0
[5:04] Jack Linden: Coal: thanks. and yes I am. keep it constructive please. I'm here because I know how signficant this change is. So let's talk it through
[5:04] Careltje Phoenix: well the fact is .. if LL keeps doing these *surprise* acts on residents.. SL will always be unstable .. I live here for 4 years now .. and I dont see many old players anymore . they all left due to to many *surprises* allready .. how does LL see its future with only new people or will it be able to keep long time players aswell >?
[5:04] RachelLynn Lane: OK TALK JACK
[5:04] Coal Edge: We need ideas to make it better, not complain of how its worse, we all agree it hurts us as customers in the pocket
[5:04] Rush Gastel: computers get cheaper and computing power increases so why are our prices going up
[5:05] Coal Edge: but we can maybe get something worked out
[5:05] Jack Linden: Equinox: currently we don't technically have that feature, as estate owners can reset it
[5:05] River Ely: Set your mainland prices to the SAME, as the island estates, and make VAT INCLUSIVE like any other decent business, not a one sided tax applied to Europeans and not the Americans
[5:05] Pippen Sonnenblume: Jack... why would you charge the same price for less prims than the original 1875 for OS>>>
[5:05] Master Quatro: unfortunately Coal this is just one in a series of bad decisions .. that we the funders of SL have to pay for
[5:05] Jack Linden: Pippen, it was just a number as part of a theorteical question.
[5:05] Krell Shinohara: hear hear on the VAT comment
[5:05] Coal Edge: and Jack, have you tried to see how putting the OS sims back to atleast where they were originally, to see how that would go
[5:05] River Ely: one price for all players for all land types would be fair
[5:05] Equinox Pinion: but it would be an easy change to do..wouldnt it and it would solve all our problem
[5:05] Dimentox Travanti: and there in lies the problem "currently we don't technically have that feature, as estate owners can reset it"
[5:05] Femina Matahari: because pippen they want to rip you off
[5:05] Coal Edge: its not 1500, but its atleast a little better
[5:06] Coal Edge: I ment in a test environment of course
[5:06] Jack Linden: Coal: many are already way past 1875 prims.
[5:06] Master Quatro: fix the technical issues .. and treat the tier increases as a separate issue
[5:06] RachelLynn Lane: Again It's SL's technical ineptitude as their best defense?
[5:06] Coal Edge: running the images of heavy sims
[5:06] Kayleigh McMillan: afk
[5:06] Omicron HUD 1.4: lilly Margetts : 6 m NE 0
[5:06] RachelLynn Lane: comeon if you can chang ethe prim limit you can change everything else
[5:06] Clubside Granville: Rush, that has always been my comment... unfortunately the changes to the backend have been few and far between on the primary culprits (the presence engine in particular), so until the infrastructure becomes the focus rather than the front end newer hardware can only goose performance so much...
[5:06] Coal Edge: well, yes, but... I am sure going down in prim is better to most than going up in price
[5:06] Rush Gastel: of course we are you gave us 3750 youd use them to if you bought them
[5:06] River Ely: one price for any peice of land, mainland or estate, one prive with VAT inclusive,
[5:06] King Pascale: I have nothing better to do... than discuss with all my customers about the changes..... yeah.....
[5:06] Femina Matahari: Tier increase means I close all sims and become another freeloading avatar
[5:06] Diamond Meness: Send the Estate Owner an email Jack...tell them to cut their pim and script usage down
[5:07] SexyAnn Ashley: Jack please listen to this
Have a Option for people to get a Credit for thier Open Space sims if 3 or under and convert all others for free and if they don't do it then they accept the Tier price increse and make the sims that pay that tier work better then they do currently
[5:07] Diamond Meness: but dont pusnish the majority of us who do stay within the guide lines
would go up across the board, for everyone. We all share the same market.
[5:07] Alexandra Fallon: Clearly if they decrease our prims after our purchase, that is bait and switch. No company wants to be accused of that.
[5:07] Master Quatro: Jack does the fact that people here are selling private full sims at $300 to $500 have any impact on you ? We paid $1675 for some of those sims .. is this good business ?
[5:07] Omicron HUD 1.4: Angely Larsson : 6 m + 3
[5:07] DigitalJack Blackhawk agrees with SexyAnn Ashley
[5:07] Jack Linden: SexyAnn: something like that is feasible
[5:07] Simone Stern: Conversion back to full sim for free.
[5:07] Jack Linden: We'll look at that
[5:07] Omicron HUD 1.4: Alora Jewell : 6 m NW 0
[5:07] Careltje Phoenix: Iwould like to see LL busnessplan for the comming year .. is it based on new players or is it based on keeping long time residents
[5:07] Simone Stern: That's the best option at this point.
[5:08] Jack Linden: Careltje: both are important.
[5:08] Rush Gastel: i just lost my trust in linden labs
[5:08] Coal Edge: The fact also, those of us who DID pay 250 for a open space setup, even if we tried to sell them to someone who wanted it
[5:08] Xandi Mars: any chance of delaying the increase..... until the real world is a bit more stable?
[5:08] Equinox Pinion: I dont get the problem for you jack...what are the additional costs you have the the OS sims
[5:08] Coal Edge: the 100.00 of transfer makes it useless
[5:09] Alexandra Fallon: So, since we are to be punished for LL's bad judgement call on the usage of openspace, how is LL being punished?
[5:09] Jack Linden: Equinox: let me try to explain..
[5:09] Yukiko Omegamu: why not raise mainland teirs so their on par with private estates no offence or anything but mainland is more abused then private estates
[5:09] Careltje Phoenix: well I would like to see that worked out then jack .. because if LL looks closely .. the surprises chased many long time players off allready and looking in this wroom .. some more will leave again
[5:09] Clubside Granville: Careltje, I would think the long-running issue of retention will remain the focus over this and any upcoming year... lol
[5:09] Xandi Mars: 6 months or so
[5:09] Diamond Meness: What if it's not an option to some of us to return our open spaces if we have 3 or less......what are u saying...well since u donthave more money invested you dont count?
[5:09] Equinox Pinion: please..
[5:09] tom007 Flow: and people from third world countrys wont have a hope in hell to join sl they live on 70 us a month i vote for majoraity
[5:09] Diamond Meness: no...something needs to be worked out for everyone on all levels...thats fair
[5:09] Careltje Phoenix: lol yes club
[5:09] King Pascale: Nobody will pay more for lag-estate -.- and LL earn more with Mainland... so there isnt a reason to rise it up
[5:09] Rush Gastel: i work hard creating lovely thing to make sl a better polace and everything goes to you guys now you want more
[5:09] Omicron HUD 1.4: tom007 Flow : 5 m S 0
[5:10] Rush Gastel: so dirty of you
[5:10] Rene Erlanger: Tom.....Ll has never been in touch with world economics and what other countiries average salaries are
[5:10] Equinox Pinion: King...i have a 56 sims connected OS estaste...and it doesnt lag!!!!
[5:10] Jack Linden: we have been selling OS regions as a quarter of a normal region. But the land area is the same. So, lets say normal regions have a load of 1, you'd expect Openspaces if used as originally intended to have a load of 0.25. But in fact they have a load of over 0.5
[5:10] River Ely: you kno that sims are emptying already, I have lost six or seven, that is your income reduced, follow up with these changes and that loss will hit you harder as many others elect to no longer pay your scary rates
[5:10] DigitalJack Blackhawk: i own mainland, full & os I just feel 3x jinxed recently
[5:10] tom007 Flow: we need to be ffair guys
[5:10] Jack Linden: So that really adds up to a lot of extra load on servers with 16 Openspaces on
[5:10] Rene Erlanger: if they did......they would surely lower tiers right across the board, to make it more affordable to all of its SL ciitizens
[5:10] Dimentox Travanti: Jack why not bill based upon load?
[5:10] Coal Edge: Jack, that even more shows the amount of OS on the box needs to be lessened
[5:10] Jack Linden: Rather than an Openspace server = Normal server in load, it's actually double
[5:10] Virtouse Lilienthal: or how about restricting the load?
[5:10] Master Quatro: just give us a way out
[5:10] RachelLynn Lane: AND Why didn't you know this before?
[5:11] Grascious Streeter is Offline
[5:11] Master Quatro: and we will be happy
[5:11] SexyAnn Ashley: No What I said is this
if you have more then 4 Open spaces have Linden labs Convert the 4 you have for free to a Full sim
if you have less then 4 then you get a Credit of USD toward your Full Sims Tiers so the Estate Owners have an Option
[5:11] Virtouse Lilienthal: I mean you can restrict the number of avatars, the scripting time, etc
[5:11] Equinox Pinion: Can people who are not abusing it not being moved to their server and have 16sims on one??
[5:11] Jack Linden: Rachel: this is an emerging issue, as the number of Openspaces increased, the back end load issues start to be more clear
[5:11] Master Quatro: don't leave us to hang and die .. take responsibility and buy our OS sims back or credit or something ..
[5:11] Stephen Psaltery: Jack. Why weren't hard limits on openspaces not taken as an option instead of this? What was the internal reasoning?
[5:11] Alexandra Fallon: That's a back end problem. We bought something and paid your price, now you change your mind after the money is already yours?
[5:11] Virtouse Lilienthal: There must be just the right scheduler running for that
[5:11] King Pascale: pls rise Agent LIMIT !!!!!!!!!
[5:11] Careltje Phoenix: Jack wouldnt it be best to keep sl economy stable and not change prices up and down ? everyone knows unstable bisness will fale in the end , ppl dont put trust in those companies
[5:11] Diamond Meness: That's not fair to the owners of 3 or less sims SexyAnn
[5:11] Virtouse Lilienthal: it's basically nothing else but a Virtual Machine
[5:11] Simone Stern: Then impose hard limits. Should have been done originally
[5:12] Coal Edge: and well, hrm, ok, is there a way technically to start script queueing at a lower point on OS than on normal sims
[5:12] Diamond Meness: openspace sims that is
[5:12] Clubside Granville: As I don't own any OpenSpace regions myself I'm here for some content creators who have talked to me about how this will affect them... many newer creators like the land mass of a full region even with the low prim count as it allows them to spread out their creations and make shopping for their products a bit of an adventure, and their hope is to retain what they have as they don't have the personal resources to support a starting business in another fashion
[5:12] Dimentox Travanti: I suggest you have a soft quota on cpu usage/resources and charge BURST rates with an 2x amount on usage.. just likecolos charge for bandwith....
[5:12] RachelLynn Lane: I've done testing in RL ... someone screwed up with their numbers and saw gold way too soon
[5:12] Virtouse Lilienthal: something like is possible with any virtual servers you can rent
[5:12] Coal Edge: make sure the OS scripts do not have CHANCE to get that high
[5:12] Krell Shinohara: Jack it seems more and more to me that you need to manage the load on the servers... put hard limits on OS
[5:12] Coal Edge: since they have less room already to grow, stop it before it grows
[5:12] Jack Linden: Hard limits for all areas, such as textures, traffic, content etc.. aren't supported currently in the simulator. It's an option down the line but would take time to build and QA
[5:12] RachelLynn Lane: SOooo
[5:12] Dimentox Travanti: cant you just use monitoring and Bill the hell out of the abusers?
[5:12] Coal Edge: I see that would take time, but its a better option than losing customers from this
[5:12] RachelLynn Lane: I think Time is something that is becoming more available all the time ...
[5:13] Totem Flow: then take the time...don't just piss off all your customers in one bolt from the blue
[5:13] Careltje Phoenix: i would sugest .. after this last change . make NO more changes .. *figuring this change is not reversable anymore that would be a cool statement and it would give a lot of us rest and not think * what will happen next , were will they screw us over next time
[5:13] RachelLynn Lane: you should be able to hire QA for a song
[5:13] Virtouse Lilienthal: Jack but you can restrict it by virtualization
[5:13] River Ely: http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=289652
[5:13] Virtouse Lilienthal: like it is done in the VMServers
[5:13] Krell Shinohara: if you took that route Jack rather than increasing prices i think a lot of people would have some respect for LL
[5:13] Simone Stern: So, take the time. We're not goihng anywhere yet, but a price hike without taking more care in finding a solution is going to cause a lot of poeple to log out.
[5:13] Virtouse Lilienthal: that would make it possible to run the same server code
[5:13] Careltje Phoenix: focus on qualitty rather then price issues .. more stabel grids makes for more players and so on
[5:13] Pippen Sonnenblume: Jack... in a nutshell... are you saying that we sim owners are being made to pay for Linden Labs mistakes in judgment???
[5:13] Jack Linden: Dimentox: you mean extra charges based on load? That's in interesting one, but hard to do fairly as load varies continually
[5:13] Virtouse Lilienthal: but the people just simply get lagg
[5:13] Coal Edge: I would think that maybe, you could use tweak the numbers on the current sim to just be lower, unless they really are hard coded
[5:13] SexyAnn Ashley: that is fair because you have to Own 1 Full sim anyhow to Own a Open Sim and you can use that to pay the tiers on the Full sim the $250 USD
[5:13] Kristaki Hudson: Jack Linden Keepth e prices same for hte actual sim OS but dont raise them, and do has u did for the new land stored raise prices but not to all the landlords or investors which trusted in your land and store its gonna be a HUGE MESS me i know what i will do if prices are raised. and i have invested MUCH money on a good tecnology that you do provided and i provided to my customers in secondlife
[5:13] Diamond Meness: i agree Simone
[5:13] Virtouse Lilienthal: and they will know them selves that it is overused
[5:13] Coal Edge: charging based on load goes back to charging a prim tax
[5:13] Coal Edge: from the old days
[5:13] Margot LaSalle: Jack, just apply some limitations to max number of users on any OS and the number of scripts so that you get a load of 0.25 and everything will be fine for everyone.
[5:14] Coal Edge: and I do not feel a viable solution
[5:14] Clubside Granville: RachelLynne, QA isn't an issue of hiring as this issue proves, it took a lot of time on the real grid for these issues to become apparent, you can't really simulate these conditions in a walled garden QA center
[5:14] Dimentox Travanti: Jack you take a cumlitive rate... Look at how ISP charge for bandwith overuse
[5:14] Stephen Psaltery: Jack do you realize how horribly this hurts any confidence? We never know how we are going to be ruined next. Maybe it will be in LL's best interest to drop the value of a linden by half? Do we know? Nope. CAn we plan for it? Nope!
[5:14] RachelLynn Lane: NO Clubside
[5:14] Stephen Psaltery: We need SOME sort of confidence.
[5:14] Equinox Pinion: Wyh dont you wait with that decision till you have a better solution for it on limiting the use of them?
[5:14] Virtouse Lilienthal: But it's actually kind of giving SL the last hit with a dagger what you're planing to do
[5:14] Jenniferbugg Blackflag: Also to continue the rest of my speech above to which I never got a reply to, It's NOT our fault or problem about servers, I know nothing about servers so you can't blame us for something for your servers and make us pay more, that's absurd in itself! If you're still going to be foolish and attempt to raise the prices on openspace sims then you better make it a longer time frame also more then 7 days after billing date for residents to pay their tier fees because if Second Life doesn't get their money in 7 days guess what they suspend you until they get their money!
[5:14] RachelLynn Lane: They knew almost immediately
[5:14] King Pascale: and the most OS are rent out.... when you have too much.. you dont know what the people do on your sim.... and you cant monitoring that...... so maybe you loose OS + Customers or must pay more and you dont know why... that isnt a solution !!!!
[5:14] Virtouse Lilienthal: This will not only affect estates or mainland
[5:14] Omicron HUD 1.4: Kaio Obviate : 10 m SE 0
[5:14] Jack Linden: Simone: yes.. lets keep talking. the price rises are 2 months away.
[5:14] Yukiko Omegamu: the no land owner change is what is making normal residents mad is now they cant buy them and will loook to mainlag sims
[5:14] Omicron HUD 1.4: lilly Margetts : 6 m NE 0
[5:14] Equinox Pinion: instead of just increasing the tier.....that will not help the problem
[5:14] Diamond Meness: To have no option to people who own three or less open space sims is not fiar....eveyrone need a fair option that will work for them
[5:14] Virtouse Lilienthal: no that will also affect any business which is assigned to decorating homes
[5:14] Virtouse Lilienthal: etc
[5:14] tom007 Flow: i would realy use the wisdom of king solomon hear jack it , can have a devastating result , so i wouls seek god over this matter
[5:14] Careltje Phoenix: agreees with stephen , he sais it better then i did :)
[5:15] Alexandra Fallon: No, I think we're having to pay for Linden Labs to hire someone to make these back end changes that will be for the hard limits. So, we're paying for something that should be paid for by LL not US!
[5:15] Virtouse Lilienthal: You're really are going to make a huge mistake
[5:15] Rush Gastel: keep talking more like run and hide and do itt anyway
[5:15] Careltje Phoenix: its a matter of trust I think now ..
[5:15] Equinox Pinion: the people who are using them for living will have to give them up and people who are abusing the rules will pay the higher tier
[5:15] Virtouse Lilienthal: the economy will crash like it did in RL
[5:15] Alora Jewell: I personally would vote for the script restriction and the AV restriction leaving the prims and price as is
[5:15] Virtouse Lilienthal: and it will be even worse for you :(
[5:15] Simone Stern: FANTASTIC. Let's find some compromise here. Let's remember we are in this as a team. As it is, it begins to feel like you're pitching for the opposing team.
[5:15] Rene Erlanger: So after the horse has bolted.......you want to penalise your customers?
[5:15] Equinox Pinion: i agree alora
[5:15] Kristina Simon: me too alora
[5:15] Jack Linden: Stephen: despite your frustration on this issue, do you think we have become better at being open and discussing these issues in advance of them taking place?
[5:15] Diarmuid Miklos: i agree with alora
[5:15] River Ely: bait and switch sounds like an apt description here.
[5:15] Rush Gastel: and i thought mono was going to lower the script times
[5:15] Krell Shinohara: agree with Alora
[5:15] Kayleigh McMillan: me too simone so OS can exist in the original purpose
[5:15] River Ely: so does price gouging
[5:16] Rene Erlanger: because you made a wrong assumption on loads......when you sold us on Open Space sims
[5:16] Coal Edge: I agree to find a way to make the threshold for the OS just lower than a normal sim, give the scripts (fish) a smaller sea to swim in, so to speak
[5:16] Diamond Meness: This wasnt discussed by the Estate Owners......we just got a blog saying oh...hello...yeah we are increasing.....
[5:16] SexyAnn Ashley: if Lindens credit your account for 3 or less Open sims $250 USD each for your Open sims and forced all others that not agree to the New Pricing---
I think that is fair to everyone
[5:16] Jack Linden: Simone: exactly. I would hope we all want the best for Second Life ultimately.
[5:16] Margot LaSalle: Jack, discussing about it but proceeding with the initial decision doesn't offer us much, I'm afraid :)
[5:16] RachelLynn Lane: And they knew it
[5:16] Pippen Sonnenblume: Jack... there WAS no discussion... LL arbitralily made the statement that prices will RAISE in January 2009
[5:16] Yukiko Omegamu: before making a change like this again CONTACT US BEFORE HAND so we know what the hell is going on
[5:16] RachelLynn Lane: they knew it by the first or second upgrade to Havok 4
[5:16] Diamond Meness: How is that fair SexyAnn if we are using them?
[5:16] Simone Stern: Exactly, no options were presented.
[5:16] King Pascale: HIRE PEOPLE !!! which check what the people do on the OS ..... when we pay for every OS 1USD more per month.... you can hire alot of people which play police !!!!
[5:16] Master Quatro: no Jack .. you give us the wrong information .. you entice us to buy buy buy then change the rules .. all this feedback / communication does nothing if you don't listen and help us .. simply being here is not enough
[5:16] RachelLynn Lane: it was in the blog
[5:16] Clubside Granville: It was great that you moved feedback to the Forums, Jack, where the responses could flow and not be constrained by the arbitraty comment restriction of the Blog
[5:17] Virtouse Lilienthal: Jack if it is like that, that you're really want the best for SL, you should really think about the huge negative side effects of this decision
[5:17] Careltje Phoenix: jack, if its only talking with nothing changing in the end .. wat do we *all* gain ? ll and us ? *awnsering your question to stephen
[5:17] Diamond Meness: what if i dont want to turn it in....?
[5:17] Krell Shinohara: Jack as for being open you might have announced the problem to resisdents and started a discussin on how to resolve it.... not announce your price hike solution and annoy everyone first
[5:17] Coal Edge: I think we are all here because we care
[5:17] Femina Matahari: so my open space sim I use for my own home and the one my manager uses for her home are just 2 open space sims total so am I going to lose them
[5:17] Diamond Meness: I do have residents on them
[5:17] Diamond Meness: they are being used
[5:17] Diamond Meness: so No
[5:17] King Pascale: CAN YOU PLEASE RISE THE "AGENT LIMIT"
[5:17] Virtouse Lilienthal: changing the policy ok. Increasing prices for all by 66% is killing loads of businesses
[5:17] Diamond Meness: u are only thinking of people with four or more
[5:17] Coal Edge: the stronger the words from someone, the closer to home it hits
[5:17] Diamond Meness: that's not right
[5:17] Margot LaSalle: we have had RL bubbles in economony, now we have in SL :)
[5:17] Diamond Meness: all have to be considered
[5:17] Kayleigh McMillan: i think they purpose of OS was very clear from the beginning
[5:17] Stephen Psaltery: Yes please Jack WORK WITH US. We understand if you need to increase the prices but we kind of feel like you are BURYING US ALIVE.
[5:17] Innula Zenovka bought her second open space sim from LL just an hour or so before this announcement was made..is feeling a bit irritated
[5:17] Jenniferbugg Blackflag: Can I please have a refund on my openspaces now please? *Holds out hand for money* So I can go back to work as this is obviously a waste of time.
[5:18] Jack Linden: Master: I can't promise action or change in a meeting like this and you wouldn't expect me to, but I can promise to listen and to go back and discuss the community's views with my colleagues.
[5:18] Coal Edge: Jennifer, this is not the place to even say something like that
[5:18] RachelLynn Lane: I think Jenn has the right idea
[5:18] Simone Stern: Hard limits and conversion for free back to full sims.
[5:18] Master Quatro: one difference rl prices are falling .. here they are raised 67% and 150% .. I think Jack and the Lindens took a page from the OPEC playbook
[5:18] Kristina Simon: i lost a client who wantes an OS for SAILING . he is not willing to pay this new tier
[5:18] Alora Jewell: I dont really want a credit, because I would rather keep my sim....but constantly trying to keep up with price fluctuations is too much. An option that does NOT involve us having to cough over more money yet again would be a better one I would think. If its load....decrease the ability to over load by limiting scripts and av's
[5:18] Innula Zenovka: particularly since my first one was compensation from LL for buying my first full sim a day or so before the price cuts in March
[5:18] Omicron HUD 1.4: Wagahai Oddfellow : 1 m SW 0
[5:18] Omicron HUD 1.4: Master Quatro : 4 m SW 0
[5:18] Omicron HUD 1.4: Firelight Simca : 6 m E 0
[5:18] Coal Edge: I dont want a credit either
[5:18] Omicron HUD 1.4: Femina Matahari : 2 m SE 0
[5:18] Omicron HUD 1.4: SexyAnn Ashley : 8 m SE 0
[5:18] Omicron HUD 1.4: King Pascale : 11 m SE 0
[5:18] Coal Edge: I would RATHER we find something that WORKS
[5:18] Coal Edge: most agree
[5:18] Equinox Pinion: I dont want credit! i want to keep my nice sailing estate!!!
[5:18] Diamond Meness: For peple with three sims or more....enforce the Hard Limits of 1800 prims.......and keep the tier the sam
[5:19] RachelLynn Lane: I think it should certainly be an option
[5:19] Careltje Phoenix: i know innula feeling .. i bouthg a sim last year .. 1 week before they announce NO gambling and VAT .. this is the second blow
[5:19] Jenniferbugg Blackflag: It sure is a place to say what I feel, Dee Linden just heard on the phone how I feel and told me to come here so I did, I have a right to say how I feel it's my money
[5:19] Kayleigh McMillan: gives an unsertain feeling indeed Alora all teh price changes
[5:19] Diamond Meness: that's what will work for us
[5:19] Simone Stern: I dont want a credit, but I'll take Lindens hehe :D
[5:19] Coal Edge: and if I am not mistaken, this is a good start
[5:19] Femina Matahari: Like I said you want more money and be fair raise the mainland tier fee to match private islands put us all on a level playing field
[5:19] Diamond Meness: three open space sims*
[5:19] River Ely: jack, your taking advantage of us again, we do not have limitless pockets, we do need including in changes before you implement them, we are your customers, we are IMPORTANT to you and the business you are using to generate YOUR income.
[5:19] Jack Linden: JenniferBugg: yes.. you should feel able to tell us how you feel.
[5:19] Simone Stern: If you need to enact stricter limits, then make it so.
[5:19] Krell Shinohara: i dont want credit i want my OS at the tier im paying now..... limit the avs and scripts
[5:20] Rush Gastel: i for one am really thinking to letthe land go when theese rises take affect
[5:20] Yukiko Omegamu: useage abuse fee on the residents rather then the simowner
[5:20] Dimentox Travanti: I have to run, Thats for the meeting jack, it shows you do want to listen and we do appreciateit
[5:20] tom007 Flow: people are not even making enough money on hear the econamy of making money is just not good for the avarge bussiness person as well , so how can we put up pricess
[5:20] Careltje Phoenix: yay! river !
[5:20] Simone Stern: but upping the price will *surely* kill off the business investment so many people made.
[5:20] Careltje Phoenix: HOO !!:D
[5:20] Equinox Pinion: jack...do you see any problems in limiting scripts and agents on them and if not..why dont you do that`
[5:20] Virtouse Lilienthal: Well Master Quatro they will be 150% for setup fee and 166% for tier fee
[5:20] River Ely: We need to have land at teh same price for mainland and islands and we ned to pay the same rate of tax or you are being europhobic.
[5:20] Diamond Meness: Option ONe: If u have four or more open space sims......offer conversion to full sim for free. If you have three or less OS sims....enforce the Hard Prim limit...keep tier the same.........
[5:20] Virtouse Lilienthal: it's not an increase of 150%
[5:20] Diamond Meness: that's fiar
[5:20] Yukiko Omegamu: the ones abuseing it have to pay the abuse fee
[5:20] Jack Linden: cheers Dimentox
[5:20] Twistit Saiman is Online
[5:20] Diamond Meness: fiar*what about that Jack?
[5:20] Clubside Granville: Femina, Mainland can't upload RAW files, use estate tools, raise/lower terrain more than 5m and you have no control over your neighbors... how does raising proces to match islands make that fair?
[5:20] Krell Shinohara: yes the VAT shamble needs fixing too that ruined my last business
[5:20] Virtouse Lilienthal: an increase of 150% would make the setup price 625L$
[5:20] Kayleigh McMillan: indeed Yukiko but how?
[5:20] Master Quatro: the strategy if there is one .. seems to be to drive land traffic to new themed mainland .. putting us all out of business .. Linden liked our private sim business model
[5:20] Master Quatro: now they have adopted it
[5:21] tom007 Flow: i dont understand this abouse thing , we pay for what we get
[5:21] Jack Linden: Equinox: to fully bolt down the various usage areas of an Openspace technically would take time. But i've taken note of your views on that
[5:21] Innula Zenovka: I've got all sorts of decisions to make between now and January 1..it looks to me as if I'm going to have to start planning on coverting to a second full sim, but now I'm worried there will be another nasty shock when I do that
[5:21] Alora Jewell: if the "prims" themselves are not really causing the load, but only the scripts in them.......scripts and av limitations should be fine......to me it seems the solution is very simple to keep everyone happy no?
[5:21] tom007 Flow: why is that abuse
[5:21] Master Quatro: and are in direct competition .. only they hold all the cards
[5:21] Femina Matahari: oh clubside do you think that is worth the stupidly high ammount we pay
[5:21] Simone Stern: then limit scripts. They cant do that?
[5:21] Femina Matahari: get a life and stop licking linden arses
[5:21] Yukiko Omegamu: well if parel ownership is still allowed and a sim is abused too the point they can charge the resident rather then the sim owner
[5:21] Jack Linden: Master: that simply isn't true. the new mainland areas are a drop in the ocean compared to the volume of estate land sold each month
[5:21] Jack Linden: it's a blip
[5:21] Equinox Pinion: i know it would take time....till then you can be sure that we estate owners would watch it
[5:22] Kayleigh McMillan: sounds good Yukiko
[5:22] Femina Matahari: rubbish Jack
[5:22] Clubside Granville: Not really, Femina, but as a Mainlander I don't want you giving them any ideas! lol
[5:22] Equinox Pinion: i mean we have to work together on this
[5:22] tom007 Flow: i dont see that as abuse if i am paying for what you guys offerd me
[5:22] DigitalJack Blackhawk: in a world where 1$L = .367 of a US penny the increase of OS teir in local economy terms is 13,600$L/mo seems alot harder to make up
[5:22] Femina Matahari: you been dumping land and printing money that way for 18 months
[5:22] Diamond Meness: I I would like to just put the Hard Pim limit on my open space as i dont own four as of yet......and keep the tier the same.
[5:22] Simone Stern: We have two months to find a way to limit script use on Open sims. I think that's a great place to start. And of course free conversion for those who wish it.
[5:22] Coal Edge: If you try to run something that will obviously use a full sims resources, then a slice of that pie will never be enough
[5:22] Yukiko Omegamu: i run a hosting company i charge for abused resources on a daily basis if it persists the resident should be removed from the private estate
[5:22] Jenniferbugg Blackflag: Thank you Jack for finally replying to me. I really in all honestly don't mean to sound rude but honestly I would not come here to express how I feel on this if I felt it was right and supported your raise in tiers for openspaces, I just got mine this past summer and have not even had a chance to enjoy them yet as it is, They aren't worth it for what we pay in tiers now, my full region even as a Class 5 isn't worth 295.00 a month the way it runs on a daily basis, I could rent a real apartment for that much.
[5:22] River Ely: Jack your not right about the land. Mainland is dumped every month and it takes residents away from the islands with its low pricing, hell, your shafting us all the time, and you know it.
[5:22] Femina Matahari: you killed us and you want corporate money now your not interested in us
[5:23] Simone Stern is beginnin to feel like a loopes gesture. =p
[5:23] SexyAnn Ashley: 4 or more Sims offer Free conversions
3 or less offer a Credit or Option to keep with less fuctionality for same Price Or same Fuctionality at the Higher Price.
then you are giving Options if you offer a Credit on the 3 or less Open Spaces
[5:23] Coal Edge: making sure the scripts stay within the chunck they are given seems the best solution
[5:23] Jack Linden: I hear you JenniferBugg. I'm getting slammed in IMs, emails and this chat, doing my best to reply to as much as I can
[5:23] Margot LaSalle: Jack, just set LIMITS to OS, don't raise the tier. Only limits can be a solution to heavy load
[5:23] RachelLynn Lane: This is the true suspect that we all hold ... that some how LL still thinks the corprate world will save us all
[5:23] Master Quatro: Jack it just seems that way .. it may be a drop now .. but whole continents start that way .. I wish i could trust you Jack .. you've deluded me too many times with what you call a "business plan" I don't trust you .. that's where we are at .. it's really too bad .. it's sad
[5:24] Diamond Meness: agrees with Margot
[5:24] River Ely: jack, if you do not want estate owners to sell land and get paid for it, then remove the option of allowing others to own land so that lindens are in tiotal control.
[5:24] Rush Gastel: time to start looking at another grid
[5:24] Jack Linden: Sorry to hear that Master. If you want to discuss it more at a later point we can do that too.
[5:24] Alexandra Fallon: How is a bunch of upset estate owners dumping their OS going to benefit LL in the long run?
[5:24] Master Quatro: LL is quickly losing any trust that was left .. without that you have the Wall street debacle that is playing out right now
[5:24] Diamond Meness: I think the Lidnes are getting paid very well......lol
[5:24] Diamond Meness: i dont think money is the issue
[5:24] RachelLynn Lane: oh ?
[5:25] Jack Linden: River: do you mean disabling estate land sales completely?
[5:25] Kristaki Hudson: Jack Linden Keep the prices actual for actual OS sims but dont raise them its gonna be a mess there be massive abandon of land me i think be good not to raise persons which trusted in new prices and new land store. u price raising is a 25% about....
[5:25] Jack Linden: for openspaces
[5:25] Equinox Pinion: you clearly see that we are all for putting limits on the OS...why dont you try to work something out quick and implementant it
[5:25] Careltje Phoenix: i think many ppl feel like master , jack
[5:25] Elvis Orbit: its liek over selling, seems OS sims were over sold
[5:25] Femina Matahari: Diamond money is always the issue with Lindens
[5:25] Rene Erlanger: my advice....if you clients no longer want to rent ........abandon the SIM and save yourself some future tiers. Its unlikely you'll be able to fill it with another resident paying 50 USD
[5:25] Stephen Psaltery: Jack I think a lot of us a WILLING to be reasonable. Can we set up some kind of structured discussion we we determine what COMPROMISE we can come to? You have to throw us SOME sort of bone.
[5:25] RachelLynn Lane: maybe we all stink or something? how can money not be the issue?
[5:25] Rene Erlanger: just abandon and take the 250 USD hit
[5:25] Coal Edge: Elvis, in a way I actually agree, they were over sold
[5:25] Femina Matahari: it is certainly not a caring attitude
[5:25] Alexandra Fallon: With LL's instability of changing prices at drop of a hat, the general public (I mean residents) see this. They're losing overall trust in LL as a stable and reputable company.
[5:25] Kaio Obviate: money is always the issue for LL.. loading issues could be easly solved by some restrictions.. but money comes furst, even if thers no sense
[5:26] Jack Linden: Stephen, agreed, this is a discussion. Let's see where it goes
[5:26] Rush Gastel: just refund the purchase price and i walk away
[5:26] Diamond Meness: Put restrictions on the S sims........
[5:26] Master Quatro: a couple years ago when the L$ was so unstable .. fluctuating wildly .. LL adopted a solution that brought stabilty to the currency .. mad the L$ trusted and all of us who invest in virtual worlds more secure to do business here .. unfortunately land instability has gotten much worse and no solution
[5:26] Simone Stern: Right. The way this is being solved MAKES IT ABOUT THE MONEY not the loading issues.
[5:26] King Pascale: Cancel the Openspace Sims..... only make Full-Prim Sims........ transform all OS to Full Prim Sims.... than nobody has a problem.........
[5:26] Diamond Meness: and for those who do want a refund...give it to them
[5:26] Equinox Pinion: restrict the OS on the agents
[5:26] Coal Edge: It just never made sense to me the OS were given their own instance to run it, but never coded to actually protect they only used a 4th of what a normal sim would use
[5:26] RachelLynn Lane: EXACTLY SIMONE
[5:26] Jack Linden: King: that's a bold suggestion!
[5:26] Coal Edge: like Jack said, stay within the .25 and not go into .5
[5:26] River Ely: I Jack, you are making it more and more difficult for estate managers to operate, you reduced our investment, you introduced single openspaces, it seems to me that you are eroding our ability to trade daily, it seems to me that is your goal, or why would you use covenants on the new sim areas of main land that feel like estate land, if not to take the customers away, just get it over with if thats what you intend to do. this progressive erosion of our investment is hurting many many sim owners, estate and openspace
[5:26] perfumed Odets: will there be NO tier increase for Full prim Regular sim, jack( like next yr or so)
[5:27] Diamond Meness: all this before breakfast...geesh
[5:27] Diamond Meness: lol
[5:27] RachelLynn Lane: oh shh perfumed
[5:27] Femina Matahari: King do you really think LL will ever refund you after they have your money
[5:27] RachelLynn Lane: don't give them ideas
[5:27] Kayleigh McMillan: i think we need a stabile Tier policy without to much surprices
[5:27] King Pascale: NO
[5:27] King Pascale: I only want... that the OS goes from the Market....
[5:27] Innula Zenovka: that's a very good question from perfumed.. I am worrying what may happen if I convert open spaces to full sims.... another nasty surprise?
[5:27] DigitalJack Blackhawk: its obvious Jack can't reply now and technical aspects isn't his field, Jack is the man on SL economics as such I am very suprised that he didn't open this to discussion prior to making such an announcemnt
[5:28] Simone Stern: Oh HELL no there wont be a full sim tier increase in the middle of this economy .... I'd race anyone to hit the abandon button if there were.
[5:28] Jack Linden: River: I know this is hard, but in all things like this we're basically walking a line trying to balance our own real world business needs with the needs and wished of our customers; it makes decisions like this very difficult
[5:28] Kayleigh McMillan: an increaso of tier like this is to much
[5:28] Wagahai Oddfellow: It goes back to LL's lack of scaling issue - we didn't know it would break at 64k people and not scale well, they didn't know that people would use the openspace as full sims, they didn't know.... just a lack of thinking ahead.. and now they're playing catchup the only way they know how - pricing instead of integrating limits and working on design changes to handle these "unexpected usages"
[5:28] perfumed Odets: ya innula..convering from and to and to again..and if it hits
[5:28] Jack Linden: But we do see it as a discussion, and we do listen
[5:28] Satir DeCuir is Online
[5:28] tom007 Flow: this will hit fox news if its going to be a wroong dessision jack plz use wisdom
[5:28] RachelLynn Lane: Exactly the question that was roaming thru our home office last night ... when do they screw us over on the main sim as well
[5:28] King Pascale: The most customers dont want to pay more for the same... or the same for less..... So our OS will not bring us something..... And i dont want to discuss hours over hours... why the prices goes down.... or the people have less prims...
[5:28] Kayleigh McMillan: that's good more we can not ask but it felt as an bump for most people
[5:28] Kayleigh McMillan: =bumb
[5:29] Rush Gastel: better to comedown on camping bot for screwing up the grid not us open space owners
[5:29] River Ely: jack, if you had held this meeting BEFORE your blog posting I would be inclined to give you more support
[5:29] Jack Linden: no-one has ever sold something like Openspaces before. All of this is new territory, so there are no real world models we can apply to know how things will progress.
[5:29] Omicron HUD 1.4: Krell Shinohara : 6 m SW 0
[5:29] Rush Gastel: 70000 on line yeah and 50% is bots
[5:29] Talin Sands: Jack do you not see that you are using a finacial tool to fix a technical problem..........the only way charging more money will reduce the load is in reducing the number of sims....is that really what LL wants?
[5:29] Femina Matahari: You never listen jack or any lindens you see our words you file them away and you go on your merry way screwing us year after year
[5:29] Yukiko Omegamu: raiseing prices on sim owners isnt the way to go for fixing the abuse of residents that are abuseing the resources your damging us more then the ones abuseing and the abusers will keep abuseing
[5:29] River Ely: ** agrees with RUSH
[5:29] RachelLynn Lane: Crappers Jack ... OS was around before
[5:29] Omicron HUD 1.4: Rush Gastel : 2 m SW 0
[5:29] Diarmuid Miklos: lol @ Rush
[5:29] Kayleigh McMillan: i agree but it could have been a more gentle introduction this is kind of harsh
[5:30] River Ely: BAn the camping bots that are gaming the numbers,
[5:30] Equinox Pinion: I am having OS since 1.5 years!
[5:30] Master Quatro: in my experience if I ever treated a client or customer this way .. I'd be out of business .. and maybe this is inevitable for LL too .. arrogance and lack of customer focus is a sure recipe for failure
[5:30] Simone Stern: You had knowledge of behavior on full sims, you knew people would stuyff everyone and their pixelated DOG on an open shapece sim, Jack, whoever didnt realize that needs to go back to answering phones.
[5:30] Pippen Sonnenblume: As I said half an hour ago... why not solve this simply by pulling all the OS back? Anyone who has 4 or more OS can convert... less than 4, and a credit can be given toward a full sim
[5:30] Alexandra Fallon: Ok, so you sold something and didn't know what you were selling entirely. But, if I go buy a car. The guy at the carlot can't call me a month later and say I can only drive it on Tuesdays.
[5:30] Margot LaSalle: I suggest Prims: 3750, Max Users: 20 and max number of scripts that you will decide, along with any other limitation that would keep one OS to 0.25 load
[5:30] River Ely: identify how many account holders are logged in in the total on line
[5:30] Coal Edge: But Jack, is it true, to your best knowledge, that the OS were sold without making sure the physical box's usage would never go over what it would for one sim/4?
[5:30] Jack Linden: by the way.. i see a ton of you have direct IMed me.. apologies that I haven't replied. too much text! :)
[5:30] Equinox Pinion: you could see from these sims what the load will be
[5:30] Yukiko Omegamu: go after the abusers and tell the estate owners that have abused sims
[5:30] King Pascale: whats with the REal Estate Market.... ? It crashed so hard down within the last 12 Month......... 12 month ago.. you got up to 10L$ per /sqm only Downpayment.. and now ?..... the same will be with the OS Market... so its better to close the doors and make clear, that the FP Sims are the only way to go
[5:30] Careltje Phoenix: true rush but only because SL is becomming a statement for *making money* we never started SL for that purpose .. we are being sucked with it .. or need to get out
[5:31] JohnnyD Posthorn: agrees with Margot >> limit the scriptload and avatars per sim (to fix your back end load) and keep the current prims/tier - otherwise people will simply abandon their OS sims
[5:31] Kristina Simon: Alexanda they have a monopol. they can restrict us to use our sims only on x-mas if they want
[5:31] Omicron HUD 1.4: Innula Zenovka : 5 m W 0
[5:31] Elvis Orbit: blog aganet limit
[5:31] Elvis Orbit: agent
[5:31] Coal Edge: if it was made to be sure that the OS could never go OVER what it would get if it were literally a 4th of a single sim, then abusers wouldnt have the same chance to abuse
[5:31] Jack Linden: Coal: we had not expected the demand or load increase; it would have been hard to predict
[5:31] Kayleigh McMillan: not sure this increase of tier is the answer for both linden as it's residents it is too unstabile
[5:31] Omicron HUD 1.4: Tombstone Benelli : 5 m 0
[5:31] Elvis Orbit: dotn allow soemoen to set it to 100 agents
[5:31] Omicron HUD 1.4: Pablo Sienkiewicz : 6 m 0
[5:31] Master Quatro: in turning around 3 real life ailing companies .. the only way to make money I found was through "extreme customer care" it's the only way .. there is no other way to survive in business
[5:32] Stephen Psaltery: Yes jack not only do I think we need some sort of concession on this issue. We need confidence in our land market again. This is the rollcoaster ride from hell. =\
[5:32] RachelLynn Lane: Oh again Jack ... that's just crap
[5:32] Virtouse Lilienthal: Well Jack but the price increase is a slap in the face afterwards
[5:32] Coal Edge: I can understand that, but how doable is it to now protect it now you know the problem, and why was that not thought of before the idea of raising the price without actually ADDING or changing what we have now?
[5:32] Careltje Phoenix: i thought that was the goal jack ? to iincrease .. we only use the resorsees yuo gave us
[5:32] Master Quatro: customers will either drive your business or they will leave it
[5:32] JohnnyD Posthorn: 10 agents max would even be reasonable for an OS sim
[5:32] Virtouse Lilienthal: and it hardly can be legal
[5:32] Pippen Sonnenblume: There are owners who are permitting EM privileges on OS sims to residents who know NOTHING about how to run a sim
[5:32] Simone Stern: How did you not expect what it would be when you set the limits?
[5:32] Simone Stern: You meaning LL
[5:32] River Ely: You gave me openspaces, whether i like em or not, I have customers worried about losing their investment in time and money, do I tell them its a Linden Think, they want ever more money, so pay up or leave, oh by the way, you can get cheap mainland if you want a place for your club!
[5:32] Equinox Pinion: and you have yourself an OS "Mos Ainsley" which you use heave too jack
[5:32] perfumed Odets: ya pippen
[5:32] Master Quatro: what part of your announcement shows any customer focus .. meeting customer needs ?
[5:33] Equinox Pinion: my OS are use less heavy that this OS from linden
[5:33] Omicron HUD 1.4: Wagahai Oddfellow : 1 m SW 0
[5:33] SexyAnn Ashley: Solve this Problem
1) Offer Free Converssion to Full Sims from 4 Open Sims
2) Offer a refund for those that have 3 or less
3) Offer Open sims with less fuctionality for same Cost
4) Offer Open Sims With better fuctionality at New Cost so they are worth the New cost
5) take them off the Market completely ( Open Sims )
[5:33] Master Quatro: it's all monopolistic arrogance
[5:33] RachelLynn Lane: Sorry Jack ... it's pretty obvious you're just Bait
[5:33] tom007 Flow: all i have heard is what lindens lab will gain in , where dose the people od sl fit in this , where is our gain , in all this
[5:33] Yukiko Omegamu: we all gotten screwed over by abusers ruining our sims yet whena solution is given its the wrong one
[5:33] RachelLynn Lane: I'm sticking to the FREEZE Policy
[5:33] River Ely: Why Jack, do you think people want openspaces, Let me share, so they dont have the horrors of the low priced mainland. Think about it. your taking that away and replacing it with more costs.
[5:33] RachelLynn Lane: and ya'll can just play with the bait
[5:33] Omicron HUD 1.4: Krell Shinohara : 6 m SW 0
[5:34] Tironko Trevellion: It's nice that you listen now but many people allready decided to leave sl. Is there any chance that this new "policy"is going to change ?
[5:34] Omicron HUD 1.4: Tombstone Benelli : 5 m 0
[5:34] Omicron HUD 1.4: DigitalJack Blackhawk : 6 m SW 0
[5:34] Coal Edge: I will admit, in the blog post all I saw was "you abused our server, so we are going to leave it the same and just charge you more for it"
[5:34] Simone Stern: How was it NOT EXPECTED people would build and scriopt to LL's preset limits?
[5:34] Rush Gastel: SIMPLE I JUST FEEL CHEATED
[5:34] Kayleigh McMillan: what i don't understand is how can teh price of an OS ever be attractive copair to a full sim?
[5:34] Diamond Meness: just curious...how many of 'think tank' meets have LL and estate owners had BEFORE huge changes like this are made?
[5:34] Stephen Psaltery: We want to start to hear about what Linden labs is going to do I think Jack. Thus far you've taken a passive stance that gives me no confidence that LL will do ANYTHING. I appreciate the words, but when will we hear some promises?
[5:34] Omicron HUD 1.4: Firelight Simca : 6 m E 0
[5:35] Margot LaSalle: Jack, what you are actually saying now is "Pay more for the same servers with the same overload but now our support team will run around more fixing problems". We are asking of you to PREVENT these problems by setting LIMITS
[5:35] River Ely: We asked repeatedly for support on OS sims, you gacve us none, you NEVER warned us that we were abusing your servers, why not jack, why not? was it because until last week you didnt know? was it?
[5:35] Coal Edge: I think myself, I would rather LL try to find out how to fix the problem first, before saying "we need more money"
[5:35] Diamond Meness: is there a .....group of some sort....where lindenlabs and about 10 or so estate owners have monthly meets?
[5:35] Kayleigh McMillan: unless you make an open space just as good in performence as a full sim but then half prim
[5:35] Diamond Meness: if there isnt...i would love to have onein place
[5:35] SexyAnn Ashley: Comment anyone on this
Solve this Problem
1) Offer Free Converssion to Full Sims from 4 Open Sims
2) Offer a refund for those that have 3 or less
3) Offer Open sims with less fuctionality for same Cost
4) Offer Open Sims With better fuctionality at New Cost so they are worth the New cost
5) take them off the Market completely ( Open Sims )
[5:35] Simone Stern: Right Margot
[5:35] Stephen Psaltery: Start conservatively. Most of us don't expect unconditional refunds. We need something, though. Sexyanne offers some good solutions.
[5:35] Kayleigh McMillan: half prim half price
[5:35] Margot LaSalle: SexyAnn, please don't do this
[5:35] Coal Edge: and I also admit I never saw one blog post saying it was out of hand, or that LL was suffering at the over usage of the open spaces
[5:35] Omicron HUD 1.4: RayAnderson Beaumont : 6 m 0
[5:35] perfumed Odets: i like those ideas..sexyanne
[5:36] Simone Stern: NOT ONE, Coal.mistaken
[5:36] RayAnderson Beaumont: hello everyone :-)
[5:36] Coal Edge: All I saw was "you messed up, we need more money"
[5:36] Elvis Orbit: Today is my 2nd year rezz day so far I have stood quiet and been optimistic but I am gettign worried at thefuture from this in sudden prices increases just not in OS sims but in full regions as well Suddenly
[5:36] Kayleigh McMillan: hi Ray
[5:36] Ethan Linden: Hello Ray
[5:36] Careltje Phoenix: hi ethan :)
[5:36] Equinox Pinion: We are all very upset Jack...and prolly say thinks we wouldnt say if we wouldnt be upset..can you not go back and discuss the agent limitation with your team and postpone that price increase till you find out if it is possible??
[5:36] Femina Matahari: well I have a sim on another openlife grid company and although it is way behind sl it is growing and strangely they care about their sim owners
[5:36] Simone Stern: WE didnt mess up. WE stayed within LL's PRESET limits.
[5:36] perfumed Odets: hi ray, hi ethan
[5:36] SexyAnn Ashley: don't do what?
[5:36] Alexandra Fallon: We're mind readers, Coal.. didn' t you get the memo? Oh yeah, that's right. There wasn't one.
[5:37] Diamond Meness: thats workable SexyAnn
[5:37] King Pascale: i cant believe that $1200 arent enough to maintance ONE server....... and with the Purchase Price... we paid for the Hardware,too ........
[5:37] Diamond Meness: that way its something for everyoine affect
[5:37] Coal Edge: Alexandra, that is the pure problem here, most everyone feels that we were not included in the solution until AFTER we were chastized forthe problem
[5:37] Jack Linden: okay, so lets summarise a little: I hear you on OS limits, and I hear you on the other options like free conversions. I won't obviously be making any promises in this discussion which is an ad-hoc one because I wanted to get as much feedback as I could.. but I will take all of this away and discuss it within the Lab. *if* there are outcomes or changes, then we should make those clear sooner rather than later
[5:37] Jack Linden: I completely take on board how significant this is to many of you.
[5:37] Diamond Meness: like....2 days sooner or like...Jan 1 later?
[5:37] Yukiko Omegamu: 6) Tell us whos owners of the sims which are being abused so we can fix it ourselfs 7) communicate with us on a month basis we arent mind readers we need to work as a team to get this stuff done you want our business we want trust and transparnacy on doing it with you guys.
[5:37] Pippen Sonnenblume: SexyAnn... you made some valid points... I'd like to see some dialogue from LL on that
[5:37] Equinox Pinion: geeez...i dont want free convertion!! i want to keep my nice estate!
[5:37] River Ely: What happens to trust jack?
[5:38] Elvis Orbit: please soon as well have out own customers to deal with with as well because fo this
[5:38] Simone Stern: ASAP please so we can tend to our people who are throwing even bigger fits in our faces (if that's possible =p)
[5:38] Coal Edge: Equinox, a lot of us want to keep it
[5:38] Stephen Psaltery: Thank you, Jack.
[5:38] Pablo Sienkiewicz: can we let the man talk?
[5:38] Femina Matahari: the only changes will be you applying it in december rather thatn january
[5:38] RayAnderson Beaumont: it makes now sense that on one wqay LL allow to place open space sims separatelly to tell us now they can't get used
[5:38] [1] eyeing Daligdig: ao on
[5:38] Equinox Pinion: so free convertion is not the solution for us
[5:38] Rene Erlanger: i mema really......there is far too much land anyway in LL.......its swamped. Look how much yellow is on that World map. There is no concept of supply and demand being used
[5:38] Coal Edge: and yes, we, me and a few others I see, want limits
[5:38] Clubside Granville: Thanks for the discussion, Jack.
[5:38] Kayleigh McMillan: and my suggestion is half a sim 7500 prims full performance and for example ¼ sim 37500 prims
[5:38] Stephen Psaltery: Yes I second that. Please ASAP on the information Jack. We need to move quickly or we'll lose TONS of money, so we need all the facts as soon as possible.
[5:38] Rush Gastel: nice hat ethan linden very apt being a pirate hat
[5:38] Coal Edge: something that makes it more secure, to know our sim is not using MORE than it should
[5:38] Diamond Meness: i dont want to reasure my tenants that everything is fine....lol...and then blame it's not again
[5:38] Omicron HUD 1.4: Equinox Pinion : 3 m SW 0
[5:38] River Ely: jack, please place a rescind on the blog, my customers are reading it. and will only have my word for it that you may reconsider
[5:38] Rene Erlanger: what is it now 2.5 logins to a single SIM.....thats absurd
[5:38] Diamond Meness: they will no longer have my trust
[5:39] Diamond Meness: and that'si important to me
[5:39] Master Quatro: please convey to the Linden team that this is not a technical issue anymore Jack .. it's truly become a trust issue .. we have lost trust in the ability of LL to treat it's customers fairly .. and equitably
[5:39] Kayleigh McMillan: just as a full sim only alowed to buy by island owners
[5:39] perfumed Odets: some would want the free conversion options too, equi
[5:39] Jack Linden: Can I just thank you all for coming and talking with me. For the most part this was constructive and calm, which I know is difficult. I bet a few of you were biting our tongues a little and I appreciate that.
[5:39] Diamond Meness: new month si coming up
[5:39] Elvis Orbit: Thansk JAck
[5:39] Careltje Phoenix: i agree with the trust remarks , very much
[5:39] Master Quatro: you must restore that trust .. if those of us who have suppoerted you (over 3 years here) all this time
[5:39] Talin Sands: Jack reply fast PPL are quitting sims already
[5:39] Simone Stern gave it the college try =p
[5:39] Coal Edge: Hey, freedom of speech is a privledge not a right :p
[5:39] DigitalJack Blackhawk: and 2 months is not enough notice to realisticly adjust business
[5:39] Diamond Meness: please keep in mind that losts of us have rent due in a few days
[5:39] JohnnyD Posthorn: yes please update the blog - I have 2 people IM already wanting to abandon their OS sims
[5:39] Coal Edge: thanks for hearing us out
[5:39] Kristina Simon: i am not willing to buy ANY lindenlab land any more. my trust is totally gone
[5:39] Jack Linden: Lets keep talking. I will reply more in the forums, and I will try to do more sessions like this over the next few days
[5:39] Stephen Psaltery: Thanks for understanding the effort it took jack. Heh
[5:39] SexyAnn Ashley: Jack I would like to talk to you further on this
[5:40] Master Quatro: are to believe that this is truly "our world" "our imagination"
[5:40] Femina Matahari: butter us up Jack it means nothing though
[5:40] Coal Edge: and ok what I said didnt come out as I ment it, but you get the idea
[5:40] Pablo Sienkiewicz: was grandfather mention?
[5:40] Babe Daligdig: why advertise open spaces to be the next best thing to slice cheese ..offer 3750 prim useage if the servers cant handle it ... what was it jack .. pull us all in so deep then slam us with a tier raise that we all cant escape .... we bought the open spaces under terms ..250 usd land cost 75 tier ... how do you justify 66% increase when we work so hard to even make anything on them now ?
[5:40] perfumed Odets: no pablo
[5:40] Diamond Meness: Honestly Jack..this is something that always need to be done
[5:40] River Ely: Announce on the blog the price changes are not in force until after discussions or this is a waste of time as i have residents that are talking about leaving
[5:40] Jack Linden: Femina. I don't butter. I'm very eager to work with everyone and to make this a discussion
[5:40] Coal Edge: well, Pablo, for one I would rather see it be fixed without raising the price first
[5:40] Master Quatro: right now it's Linden's world and Linden's lack of any imagination in solving problems
[5:40] Diamond Meness: I propose a monthly pow wow...with LL and estate owners
[5:41] Pablo Sienkiewicz: jack can you look into that, please?
[5:41] Elvis Orbit: I agree Diamond in diff time zones as well
[5:41] Coal Edge: Lets see what Jack comes up with on fixing it first
[5:41] Coal Edge: so we dont HAVE to pay more
[5:41] Elvis Orbit: Thanks jack
[5:41] Femina Matahari: yeah sure Jack fogive me if I dont believe you
[5:41] Stephen Psaltery: Pablo, they said granfathered openspaces would be upgraded to the increased price as well.
[5:41] Rush Gastel: I JUST FEEL CHEATED
[5:41] Desari Deledda: Already I have begun to figure out ways of minimizing this situtation, with ideas of perhaps converting....but I'll be taking on a lot of responsibility in tier doing that.....I would really like to see us get a break in that conversion. We can't afford to do it and pay 850 usd too.
[5:41] Omicron HUD 1.4: King Pascale : 11 m SE 0
[5:41] Krell Shinohara: Agreed River take aback the announcement and say its under discussion
[5:41] River Ely: Announce on the blog the price changes are not in force until after discussions or this is a waste of time as i have residents that are talking about leaving
[5:41] Virtouse Lilienthal: Diamond Meness there's a weekly meeting already for land related questions
[5:41] Virtouse Lilienthal: Diamond Meness thursdays
[5:41] River Ely: this is madness
[5:41] Femina Matahari: you are cheated Rush it what Linden labs are good at
[5:42] Pippen Sonnenblume: Jack... River has a point...
[5:42] Pablo Sienkiewicz: Stephen i meant the possibilitie of having grandfather voids as they have full prim islands
[5:42] Virtouse Lilienthal: I think
[5:42] Femina Matahari: the only thing they are good at
[5:42] Virtouse Lilienthal: lol I can't remember
[5:42] River Ely: you hold a gun to our heads and say you will think about it?
[5:42] Pippen Sonnenblume: this is starting a mass exodus
[5:42] Krell Shinohara: river has a good point
[5:42] Diamond Meness: i'm talking on a deeper level
[5:42] Diamond Meness: Meetings that would avoid issues like this
[5:42] Pablo Sienkiewicz: I mean, in Spain is just not legal to change the rules of a contract once the transaction has been made, is it in the States?
[5:42] Equinox Pinion: i think it would be good if you post on the blog that you are considering other options...as you scared many people
[5:42] perfumed Odets: i think giving ppl options and choices between paying more or converting OS back to regular sim for free and..giving LL time to come up with solutions to fix the tech issues regarding OS performances sound good
[5:42] Babe Daligdig: you bring in open spaces ..empty our full prim lands .. force us to go with the ** new trend ** .... now your gonna empty our open spaces ?
[5:42] Virtouse Lilienthal: Pablo it's not only in spain like that
[5:43] RayAnderson Beaumont: with this new tier prices the most of the landowners will loose their land
[5:43] Stephen Psaltery: Yes jack can we have a suspension on the date while you guys discuss this? I'd hate to wait for the outcome of the discussion only to find a few weeks before january nothing changes and I've lost all that time.
[5:43] Andy Grant: i believe the fundamental question is who screwed up ? LL underpriced the sims, but asking customers to fund writeoff costs is just beyond ridiculous.... my opinion offer existing customers 12months without increasing tier
[5:43] Diamond Meness: i now have prepare myself for my tenants
[5:43] Omicron HUD 1.4: Rush Gastel : 2 m SW 0
[5:43] Desari Deledda: This isn't a democracy we live in Pablo
[5:43] Diamond Meness: dont know what to tell them yet
[5:43] Equinox Pinion: Andy...it doesnt matter who screwed it up...we need to solve it!!
[5:43] Pablo Sienkiewicz: ok jack is gone...
[5:43] Diamond Meness: as the outcome will decided weather they will stay or leave
[5:43] Coal Edge: I would rather not have to pay more, if the limits work it may not even be possible
[5:43] Diamond Meness: so i need answers fast
[5:43] Coal Edge: well, we wont get an answer fast I dont think
[5:44] Innula Zenovka seconds Stephen's point.. I'm worried, too, that we face some weeks of uncertainty followed by a mad scramble, just before Christmas, to deal with whatever's finally decided
[5:44] River Ely: JACK, make a note on the blog to rescind the statement this morning, we are going to lose custoemrs and in some cases will fold
[5:44] Pippen Sonnenblume: Hmmm... the Lindens have left the building
[5:44] Omicron HUD 1.4: lilly Margetts : 6 m NE 0
[5:44] Omicron HUD 1.4: Totem Flow : 6 m SW 0
[5:44] Rush Gastel: only increase future sim and dont allow grand fathering i would be happywith that
[5:44] SexyAnn Ashley: Can I say something everyone please
[5:44] Diamond Meness: lol
[5:44] Diamond Meness: yeah they gone
[5:44] SexyAnn Ashley: and people listen a moment
[5:44] Krell Shinohara: I believe this is a screw up but we can either Witch Hunt (appropriate with halloween) or we can resolve the problem, I know what I would rather do.
[5:44] perfumed Odets: yea innula
[5:44] Coal Edge: Krell, me also
[5:44] Omicron HUD 1.4: Maddison Dagostino : 6 m E 0
[5:44] Pablo Sienkiewicz: Coal i went from mainland to estates casue of VAT, we will always have to pay more, i will just like some alternatives...
[5:44] Andy Grant: equinox: i just offered a solution 12months of no change in tier everybody happy
[5:44] Krell Shinohara: Same happend to me Pablo
[5:45] Rene Erlanger: unfortunately....i doubt it will change anything. he might offer you a little bone of a free conversion fee, but thats about it
[5:45] Coal Edge: well, would you rather be forced to pay EVEN more, or make it work for the current price
[5:45] Tironko Trevellion: Is this an overused openspace sim ?
[5:45] Femina Matahari: last time I say it if you want to be fair Increase land tier on mainland so it is like in 2006 when it was all the same so we are all on a level playing field. Your even stealing our covenant way that gave us our one adavantage
[5:45] Pablo Sienkiewicz: yeah andy like they care....
[5:45] Omicron HUD 1.4: Krazi Babii : 28 m W + 11
[5:45] Tironko Trevellion: ^^
[5:45] SexyAnn Ashley: We have 2 months to act on this if it was Imediate then there is no time to change I think that they will change this issue so give it time to come into effect
[5:45] Diamond Meness: i would perfer make it work for the current price
[5:45] Master Quatro: unfortunately not many of us trust LL anymore .. it's hard to believe anything they say
[5:45] Equinox Pinion: well...that is not the long term solution...if they really have problems with the load
[5:45] King Pascale: and we must start now....
[5:45] Coal Edge: thats my point, lets find a current solution
[5:45] Krell Shinohara: Jack this to me sounds like a time for LL to earn some trust from its residents.
[5:45] Femina Matahari: yeah leave sl thats the only way
[5:45] Andy Grant: equinox: soluton 2 fire the idio who underpriced OS'es
[5:46] Omicron HUD 1.4: SexyAnn Ashley : 8 m SE 0
[5:46] Babe Daligdig: is linden labs that stupid to see this coming .. offering 3750 prims for light use?
[5:46] River Ely: they shafted us again folks, pas me some more lube!
[5:46] Andy Grant: idiot*
[5:46] Diamond Meness: and i'm ashamed at all u men....sitting and letting us women stand
[5:46] Coal Edge: Jack is gone :\
(I had to remove the private IM's from teh log, sorry for the delay)
River Ely
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